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Old 26-06-2012, 22:49   #121
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Re: Mono vs. Multi - Sailing Ability

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Originally Posted by downunder View Post
You haven't done your research them. Check out neel trimarans.
Thats a great looking boat! Will be keeping an eye out to see one in person, and hopefully go aboard one.
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Old 26-06-2012, 23:11   #122
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Re: Mono vs. Multi - Sailing Ability

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Nick, that's for the psycho-analysis...
Talk about analyzing! You're going to analyze and theorize yourself into a typical armchair sailor on this forum!
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Old 26-06-2012, 23:27   #123
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Re: Mono vs. Multi - Sailing Ability

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Originally Posted by ArtM View Post
Thats a great looking boat! Will be keeping an eye out to see one in person, and hopefully go aboard one.
That (Neel Trimaran) is indeed a fascinating looking vessel. What a study in creating bridgedeck living space! We wonder how she'll go for slamming with that steeply sloped and chimed surface? We can't understand, however, why anyone designs a nav station to portside...ah well...we are mere sailors!
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Old 26-06-2012, 23:46   #124
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Originally Posted by D&D

Interesting indeed...thanks Impi.

Perhaps it's a bit off-thread (or not?!?) but we're curious...what advantage do you see in sequentially releasing the reefing lines as the main goes up? We tend to simply open all the reefing blocks (or the top 1 or 2, depending on our intended mainsail area) before we begin to raise the main. The reefing lines come out sequentially, of course...and wouldn't it be preferable to concentrate on the main, without the need to remember (or pause?) to release the blocks? Probably not a big difference, but we're curious.

We're also wondering if your method relieves some of the nuisance value of the battens snagging on the lazyjack lines? Perhaps having the main clearly commited to one tack (with the leeward lazyjack lines slacked) would allow the battens to go up unfettered?
Hi D&D
Yeah I hope not to be going off thread here too much as it is not my post, but of course my technique is (NOT upwind) whilst under sail and at speed (genoa out) which means the wind pressure in a loose main being hoisted will cause the sail to hit up against the shrouds (could result in a broken batten/s). I already mentioned that the lazy jack lines to leeward are slacked and cleated near the mast (until the sail is hoisted). This way I NEVER have a concern of a batten snagging in the lines.

With the reef lines clamped off in the marked positions, we give the main a chance to tension before it can hit the shrouds (as it reduces the bellowing effect of the sail each time the reef comes under tension). From there, and depending on wind strength and angle (we sometimes hoist with the boat in a broad reach ... Wind from aft sector) we take the main up in 'baby steps' and always with the intention to just keep the main clear of hitting the shrouds. We do this at speed (we dont want the sail flapping and dont want to give it a chance to reach the shrouds) allowing the main to stop at tension under each reef position.
This also is great as if conditions are overwhelming one can take a 'rest' with the sail reefed and also feel how it performs with each increase in power before hoisting further. ... All the while the boat is cruising under power of the genoa, asymmetric or code zero!

This process illuminates the need to put the boat upwind which slows the trip down a lot and in some seas causes unnecessary porpoising off the waves ... We want to keep our bottle of champagne on the table!

It also illuminates the near for engines to keep the boat upwind whilst hoisting the main.

When bringing the sail down, the process is similar but more tricky so one needs to keep an eye on it (generally we would do this when crossing the Atlantic and wanting to keep the asymmetric or double Genoa's flying but bring in the main due to increased wind strength) ... These days we often do it just because we don't want to put the boat upwind when lowering the main and want to lower it just before dropping anchor ... We would rather have our main down and allow the furling genoa take us to anchor which when if going to wind to lower the main would mean you have to furl in the genoa first.... Wasted time and diesel!

The first thing I do is to Clamp off the topping lift at a sufficient height to prevent the boom from collapsing as the main comes down. I get the boat close to being down wind just enough to keep 'breeze in the sail' ... The main sheet slack is taken up to a 'firm position'.

I then start with the lowest reef which I put under tension and keep bringing it in allowing the main to come down the mast under tension. It's a 'playoff' between reef line tension and main halyard tension.
What this does is to bring the main sail and all reefing line down into the stack pac ... Of course some of the sail 'bags out' and will need to be pushed in by hand right at the end.
The last bit of main has to be brought in with the downhaul line attached to the head of the sail ... I put mine on the winch ... Ever so carefully!

The thing to watch out for here is 'jybing' ... We do not want to do that! The technique also changes a bit depending on your point of sail!
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Old 27-06-2012, 00:24   #125
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Re: Mono vs. Multi - Sailing Ability

Thanks much impi. Some further thoughts...and then we'd better let this 'drift' head back to the mono vs multi thing?!?

Quote:
Originally Posted by impi View Post
...my technique is (NOT upwind) whilst under sail and at speed (genoa out) which means the wind pressure in a loose main being hoisted will cause the sail to hit up against the shrouds (could result in a broken batten/s). I already mentioned that the lazy jack lines to leeward are slacked and cleated near the mast (until the sail is hoisted). This way I NEVER have a concern of a batten snagging in the lines.
We can sure see the benefit of avoiding those annoying snags, but we nearly always raise the main while still on anchor which we find a very simple (and diesel-saving) process...and with NO batten vs shrouds risk(s) of course.

Quote:
Originally Posted by impi View Post
... With the reef lines clamped off in the marked positions, we give the main a chance to tension before it can hit the shrouds (as it reduces the bellowing effect of the sail each time the reef comes under tension). From there, and depending on wind strength and angle (we sometimes hoist with the boat in a broad reach ... Wind from aft sector) we take the main up in 'baby steps' and always with the intention to just keep the main clear of hitting the shrouds. We do this at speed (we dont want the sail flapping and dont want to give it a chance to reach the shrouds) allowing the main to stop at tension under each reef position.
This also is great as if conditions are overwhelming one can take a 'rest' with the sail reefed and also feel how it performs with each increase in power before hoisting further. ... All the while the boat is cruising under power of the genoa, asymmetric or code zero!

This process illuminates the need to put the boat upwind which slows the trip down a lot and in some seas causes unnecessary porpoising off the waves ... We want to keep our bottle of champagne on the table!
The Admiral is VERY impressed with your champagne priorities!

Quote:
Originally Posted by impi View Post
... When bringing the sail down, the process is similar but more tricky so one needs to keep an eye on it (generally we would do this when crossing the Atlantic and wanting to keep the asymmetric or double Genoa's flying but bring in the main due to increased wind strength) ... These days we often do it just because we don't want to put the boat upwind when lowering the main and want to lower it just before dropping anchor ... We would rather have our main down and allow the furling genoa take us to anchor which when if going to wind to lower the main would mean you have to furl in the genoa first.... Wasted time and diesel!

The first thing I do is to Clamp off the topping lift at a sufficient height to prevent the boom from collapsing as the main comes down. I get the boat close to being down wind just enough to keep 'breeze in the sail' ... The main sheet slack is taken up to a 'firm position'.

I then start with the lowest reef which I put under tension and keep bringing it in allowing the main to come down the mast under tension. It's a 'playoff' between reef line tension and main halyard tension.
What this does is to bring the main sail and all reefing line down into the stack pac ... Of course some of the sail 'bags out' and will need to be pushed in by hand right at the end.
The last bit of main has to be brought in with the downhaul line attached to the head of the sail ... I put mine on the winch ... Ever so carefully!
We may give this a try, although we removed the downhaul a while back as it was too often getting in the way and rarely used positively. We agree, however, about the advantage of sailing in under genoa only. Our current method of dropping the main is very similar to yours, in that we bring the main down by sequentially bringing in the reefing lines and easing the main halyard, but when the 3rd reef is hauled in we just let the halyard go...and (so far anyway!) the weight of the sail -- It's a large square top -- brings it down nicely...altho whether it will do that with downwind pressure I guess we'll find out!

Anyway, thanks for your lengthy comments.
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Old 27-06-2012, 05:37   #126
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Seriously - you have open ocean cruised a Bene at 300 miles a day? Im very impressed, You need to come here and win the Brisbane to Gladstone, Nothing under 100ft mono has done the race in under a day = and its 302 miles.
My guess is he probably hit 13 kts surfing down a wave one time and figured if he could stay on that wave for 24 hrs he would have a 300 day.
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Old 27-06-2012, 07:14   #127
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Re: Mono vs. Multi - Sailing Ability

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Originally Posted by Ex-Calif View Post
Mark - nice boat and thanks for sharing the pics. Looks like fun.

However - the numbers displayed result in a TWS of almost 23 knots at 80 degrees true. I sail on a 35 jeanneau and we do 7 knots in 23 tws and are pointing at about 45 degrees true. I am not saying you can't point higher than what you are displaying but vmgs will be very close to windward.

You probably would kick our butts in light airs. I think we are around 8 ton...

True Wind Speed And Direction Calculator
No, the numbers displayed were not the "tacking through 90 degrees" that I described. It was indeed a different day.

Point was: #1... In high winds, we can sail off the wind at double digits all day, even in huge seas. Like when we left Cat & Gun in the Bahama,s at dawn, (in 15' waves , crossing the Gulf Stream with a somewhat northerly 38+ knots of wind)... and had the hook down in Biscayne Bay by mid day!

In the photos that I included, the mast head wind indicator was responding to a lurch. We are sheeted in as hard as possible. We actually had to pop an emergency tack when the reef was only 50' to leeward! We were going to windward @ around 9 knots, sailing tighter than 45% off of the apparent wind, and it was BITCHIN. With our centerboard drawing 7', we side slip way less than mini keel cats, or 34' shallow draft, "cruising" monohulls, while going faster.

To compare our Searunner 34 to a similar monohull, FAIRLY:

It would be compared to a 34' variable draft hull configuration, "cruising" boat with (3' to 7' draft) This means a centerboard boat.

It would have a reliable diesel, with CV joint/thrust bearing, a fuel polishing system, dual tanks, and essential spares.

This 34' monohull would be a FULL TIME liveaboard for two, (12 years of it), loaded with photo albums, tax records, the works... It would have 5 tool boxes, with spares... Autopilot, windlass, RADAR, water maker, SSB, refrigeration, dozens of fans and lights, 2 sinks, 2 plumbed in showers, etc... ALL would be run, 100% self sufficiently, by the mounted solar panels.

This boat would have a hard dodger, that TWO can stand on, a bimini top, and full cockpit enclosure, that works at a dock, out on the hook, or beating to windward in a gale.

This 34' monohull would have a 14' parachute sea anchor, drogue, 500' rode with float & retrieval gear, and FIVE anchors with separate rodes, sufficient to weather a hurricane, (on a dozen SEPARATE occasions, over 16 years) Oh yes... Don't forget the 4 fenders, two boat hooks, and dozen dock lines.

It would have one single bunk, and TWO that are 4' X 7'. with full fuel & water tankage, as well as 35 gallons of "holding" capacity.

Onboard would be 10 gallons of "extra" diesel fuel in jugs, 5 of gasoline, 20#s of propane, (with extra), a BBQ grill, and 8 large empty jugs for ferrying liquids out to the boat.

This 34' monohull would have half a dozen awning sections, with one having spreader poles and measuring 14' X 16", (that can stand in 40 knots of wind).

It would have a garden sprayer, (shower), 5 gal clothes washing bucket, similar "viewing" bucket, as well as wetsiuts & free dive gear for two, and full SCUBA (+ tank) for one.

There would be a 10' RIB, with numerous accessories, and an 8 HP motor, as well as an inflatable kayak with paddle and accessories.

Of coarse, it would include lots of fishing gear with spears, spear guns, rod n reel, etc... as well as multi season clothes, bedding, shoes, and all of the books & manuals to keep this full time "only" home running properly.

My point was... that THIS 34' monohull would "possibly" be as tight winded, but not more so. It would be MUCH slower under all points of sail, in all winds.
Most obviously, it would be so overcrowded and covered with "crap", that it would be a nightmare to sail. It would have stuff tied ALL OVER the decks, poor visibility, and it would be total kayos, from stem to stern. Now... sail it tens of thousands of miles, >20 countries, hundreds of islands, over 16 years.

Oh yes, you have to build and maintain it yourself too, sometimes while employed...

IMO... To make a comparison real, it has to be "cruising" boat to cruising boat, of similar seaworthiness, size, draft, load, intent, duration, and occupancy.
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Old 27-06-2012, 07:21   #128
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Re: Mono vs. Multi - Sailing Ability

One is still at it's most stable right side up and the other upside down!
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Old 27-06-2012, 07:28   #129
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Re: Mono vs. Multi - Sailing Ability

funny how no one credits the sailor with the ability to sail either kind of boat....isnt the boat for sailing ability--will it sail itself out of the slip?? i doubt it.. the SAILOR does that....
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Old 27-06-2012, 07:39   #130
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Re: Mono vs. Multi - Sailing Ability

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Old 27-06-2012, 07:56   #131
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Re: Mono vs. Multi - Sailing Ability

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funny how no one credits the sailor with the ability to sail either kind of boat....isnt the boat for sailing ability--will it sail itself out of the slip?? i doubt it.. the SAILOR does that....
See post #14

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Old 27-06-2012, 08:02   #132
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Re: Mono vs. Multi - Sailing Ability

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Originally Posted by Mark Johnson View Post
No, the numbers displayed were not the "tacking through 90 degrees" that I described. It was indeed a different day.

Point was: #1... In high winds, we can sail off the wind at double digits all day, even in huge seas. Like when we left Cat & Gun in the Bahama,s at dawn, (in 15' waves , crossing the Gulf Stream with a somewhat northerly 38+ knots of wind)... and had the hook down in Biscayne Bay by mid day!

In the photos that I included, the mast head wind indicator was responding to a lurch. We are sheeted in as hard as possible. We actually had to pop an emergency tack when the reef was only 50' to leeward! We were going to windward @ around 9 knots, sailing tighter than 45% off of the apparent wind, and it was BITCHIN. With our centerboard drawing 7', we side slip way less than mini keel cats, or 34' shallow draft, "cruising" monohulls, while going faster.

To compare our Searunner 34 to a similar monohull, FAIRLY:

It would be compared to a 34' variable draft hull configuration, "cruising" boat with (3' to 7' draft) This means a centerboard boat.

It would have a reliable diesel, with CV joint/thrust bearing, a fuel polishing system, dual tanks, and essential spares.

This 34' monohull would be a FULL TIME liveaboard for two, (12 years of it), loaded with photo albums, tax records, the works... It would have 5 tool boxes, with spares... Autopilot, windlass, RADAR, water maker, SSB, refrigeration, dozens of fans and lights, 2 sinks, 2 plumbed in showers, etc... ALL would be run, 100% self sufficiently, by the mounted solar panels.

This boat would have a hard dodger, that TWO can stand on, a bimini top, and full cockpit enclosure, that works at a dock, out on the hook, or beating to windward in a gale.

This 34' monohull would have a 14' parachute sea anchor, drogue, 500' rode with float & retrieval gear, and FIVE anchors with separate rodes, sufficient to weather a hurricane, (on a dozen SEPARATE occasions, over 16 years) Oh yes... Don't forget the 4 fenders, two boat hooks, and dozen dock lines.

It would have one single bunk, and TWO that are 4' X 7'. with full fuel & water tankage, as well as 35 gallons of "holding" capacity.

Onboard would be 10 gallons of "extra" diesel fuel in jugs, 5 of gasoline, 20#s of propane, (with extra), a BBQ grill, and 8 large empty jugs for ferrying liquids out to the boat.

This 34' monohull would have half a dozen awning sections, with one having spreader poles and measuring 14' X 16", (that can stand in 40 knots of wind).

It would have a garden sprayer, (shower), 5 gal clothes washing bucket, similar "viewing" bucket, as well as wetsiuts & free dive gear for two, and full SCUBA (+ tank) for one.

There would be a 10' RIB, with numerous accessories, and an 8 HP motor, as well as an inflatable kayak with paddle and accessories.

Of coarse, it would include lots of fishing gear with spears, spear guns, rod n reel, etc... as well as multi season clothes, bedding, shoes, and all of the books & manuals to keep this full time "only" home running properly.

My point was... that THIS 34' monohull would "possibly" be as tight winded, but not more so. It would be MUCH slower under all points of sail, in all winds.
Most obviously, it would be so overcrowded and covered with "crap", that it would be a nightmare to sail. It would have stuff tied ALL OVER the decks, poor visibility, and it would be total kayos, from stem to stern. Now... sail it tens of thousands of miles, >20 countries, hundreds of islands, over 16 years.

Oh yes, you have to build and maintain it yourself too, sometimes while employed...

IMO... To make a comparison real, it has to be "cruising" boat to cruising boat, of similar seaworthiness, size, draft, load, intent, duration, and occupancy.
M.
I object to your comparison with monos length for length, and draft for draft. If you are draft limited, you should forget monos. Due to the inherent design of them, they need more draft for their ballasted keels. I don't count swing-keel monos as this is an expensive, troublesome, and inefficient approach -- I would just buy a cat or a tri and forget about it, if I were so severely draft limited (and why would you be? seems like an armchair hypothetical to me).

A comparable mono, as we have been discussing, is going to be longer and narrower, compared to a shorter and wider multi. It is not apples to apples to compare length for length.

But all that being said, I generally agree with everything else you wrote. Tri's give probably the best performance you can get in a smaller cruising boat. From a performance point of view, they are inherently superior to both mono and cat -- at least in smaller sizes. Nor do they have the twitchy motion/ bridgedeck slap problem of cats.

I like them very much and if I were stupid or crazy enough to own two boats (kind of like having two wives -- crazy, isn't it?), my second boat would be a Dragonfly 1200. Absolutely outrageous performance for a boat that size, and an absolute blast to sail, and all for remarkably modest money. Can be folded up to fit into an ordinary berth, or navigate tight situations! Can be beached or dried out! Has been clocked at over 20 knots -- a 39 foot boat! Now that's cool . . . I can't think offhand of any even remotely cruisable boat of any type less than 45' which can keep up with it.
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Old 27-06-2012, 08:15   #133
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Re: Mono vs. Multi - Sailing Ability

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My guess is he probably hit 13 kts surfing down a wave one time and figured if he could stay on that wave for 24 hrs he would have a 300 day.
He did not say he did it on his boat. He only said he had done 300 miles in a day.
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Old 27-06-2012, 08:37   #134
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He did not say he did it on his boat. He only said he had done 300 miles in a day.
I guess when he said "under my keel" I took that to mean his boat?
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Old 27-06-2012, 08:40   #135
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Re: Mono vs. Multi - Sailing Ability

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I guess when he said "under my keel" I took that to mean his boat?
I can see the confusion...
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