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Old 26-06-2012, 14:38   #76
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Re: Mono vs. Multi - Sailing Ability

The spreadsheets make it more fun for me.

Also, the realization that it is a myth that monohulls have inherently better performance characteristics, which was the point of this thread. The rationalization was a separate matter.

The Wright Brother's made the first flying airplanes when they realized that the published lift figures were incorrect. They recalculated the figures themselves, casting aside "conventional knowledge", and produced the first flying wing design.

It's my nature to question conventional wisdom, and in this case I believe that it's wrong. It's significant, and meaningful to a lot of people who have been led to believe that they cannot "have it all".

"Every sailboat is a compromise" is another one. While this seems inescapably true at the edges, in the center it breaks down. Every year, the designers are creating boats which are more-and-more compromise free. This has resulted in an apparent explosion of people who are circumnavigating the world by sail, not in a narrow, bucking sailboat tethered for dear life to the deck in a moderate blow, but in comfort and luxury, sipping cocktails and enjoying gourmet meals at their dining table while watching the waves outside their saloon windows.

I for one appreciate the understanding that choosing a multihull is NOT a compromise at all, but rather is equal or superior to an equivalent monohull in essentially every way.

I predict that, in 20-30 years, there will be virtually no monohull sailboats longer than 40' constructed for the general market. Further, I predict that in less than 15 years (and there are probably examples today), marinas in popular cruising markets will reconfigure sections of their marina with shorter, wider slips specifically catering to the catamaran. In shallow water areas, such as the Florida Keys, I think we will see a continuing decrease in dredging operations, and that there will be an increasing number of private marinas which will be open only to shallow draft vessels.
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Old 26-06-2012, 14:41   #77
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Re: Mono vs. Multi - Sailing Ability

Or, to be more succinct, I believe the monohull sailboat is now obsolete, at least in the cruising market, and is being sustained in the market through a combination of nostalgia, traditionalism, and misinformation.
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Old 26-06-2012, 14:53   #78
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Re: Mono vs. Multi - Sailing Ability

who cares really? why is it that everyone is so concerned about what someone else choses to sail?

such a small part of choicing the correct cruising boat
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Old 26-06-2012, 14:58   #79
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Re: Mono vs. Multi - Sailing Ability

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtM View Post

"Every sailboat is a compromise" is another one. While this seems inescapably true at the edges, in the center it breaks down. Every year, the designers are creating boats which are more-and-more compromise free. This has resulted in an apparent explosion of people who are circumnavigating the world by sail, not in a narrow, bucking sailboat tethered for dear life to the deck in a moderate blow, but in comfort and luxury, sipping cocktails and enjoying gourmet meals at their dining table while watching the waves outside their saloon windows.

I for one appreciate the understanding that choosing a multihull is NOT a compromise at all, but rather is equal or superior to an equivalent monohull in essentially every way.
I am sure you are trying to be provocative Art.
There are compromises with a multihul, which is why not everybody chooses them as the ideal yacht.
You need to decide if the compromises suit your needs, there is no ideal answer.
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Old 26-06-2012, 15:06   #80
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Re: Mono vs. Multi - Sailing Ability

ArtM, you have now become a troll.

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Old 26-06-2012, 15:07   #81
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Re: Mono vs. Multi - Sailing Ability

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtM View Post
The spreadsheets make it more fun for me.

Also, the realization that it is a myth that monohulls have inherently better performance characteristics, which was the point of this thread. The rationalization was a separate matter.

The Wright Brother's made the first flying airplanes when they realized that the published lift figures were incorrect. They recalculated the figures themselves, casting aside "conventional knowledge", and produced the first flying wing design.

It's my nature to question conventional wisdom, and in this case I believe that it's wrong. It's significant, and meaningful to a lot of people who have been led to believe that they cannot "have it all".

"Every sailboat is a compromise" is another one. While this seems inescapably true at the edges, in the center it breaks down. Every year, the designers are creating boats which are more-and-more compromise free. This has resulted in an apparent explosion of people who are circumnavigating the world by sail, not in a narrow, bucking sailboat tethered for dear life to the deck in a moderate blow, but in comfort and luxury, sipping cocktails and enjoying gourmet meals at their dining table while watching the waves outside their saloon windows.

I for one appreciate the understanding that choosing a multihull is NOT a compromise at all, but rather is equal or superior to an equivalent monohull in essentially every way.

I predict that, in 20-30 years, there will be virtually no monohull sailboats longer than 40' constructed for the general market. Further, I predict that in less than 15 years (and there are probably examples today), marinas in popular cruising markets will reconfigure sections of their marina with shorter, wider slips specifically catering to the catamaran. In shallow water areas, such as the Florida Keys, I think we will see a continuing decrease in dredging operations, and that there will be an increasing number of private marinas which will be open only to shallow draft vessels.

Hehehe , ohh boy! this is very funy, 10 to 15 years heee? look, this is still a monohull market, all the megabuck guys still building huge monohulls, builders like swan , oyster, HR, still making beautifull monohulls, the big challenges are made in monohulls, almost all the nice books writed for very clever sailors are writed based in monohulls, there still in the world thousands of persons dreaming with a beautifull and nice monohull, we have the advantage of getting diferent types of rigs, ketch, cutter, schooners, shallow draft, deep draft, 2 engines, 1 cabin , 2 cabin , pointing as hig as 35 degress , 50 , 45, fast , slow, etc...

You see, the monohull world is huge, and not everybody can aford a multi, so with the actual economic situation you say that in 15 years all of us are going to be rich, i hope in my case, maybe i can aford a 65 or 70 ft monohull, Look, not everybody have a scary wife blaming the heeling or the disconfort of the monohull, many in fact love to heel or put the rail down, and many womans are sailing around the world in monohulls , and many dont give a dam crap about the gintonic in the cockpit table, surfing at 20 knts.


Monohulls are still well alive, and the market still going strong , so yes mate, try a fountaine pajot or a lagoon , or a monohull for the matter, is a compromise believe it or not. Cheers.
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Old 26-06-2012, 15:13   #82
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Re: Mono vs. Multi - Sailing Ability

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Originally Posted by ArtM View Post
Or, to be more succinct, I believe the monohull sailboat is now obsolete, at least in the cruising market, and is being sustained in the market through a combination of nostalgia, traditionalism, and misinformation.
That's a pretty bold statement...and even as a person who appreciates the advantages of multihulls, I have to disagree.

Monohulls are less expensive to manufacture, and have less area to keep painted. They generally have one less engine to maintain. They can carry more load with less of a performance penalty.

ANY boat is a series of compromises. You give up something to get more of something else. This is inevitable, because a boat is asked to do so many different things. Sometimes a monohull is the right answer to a particular set of needs and compromises...and sometimes a multihull is.
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Old 26-06-2012, 15:15   #83
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Re: Mono vs. Multi - Sailing Ability

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and a supposedly premium automobile. It breaks with almost humorous regularity and has left me stranded many times. Yet I've been driving it for years, don't get rid of it, and in fact, I am even considering buying another one.
To continue your comparison, and how I apply my logic to it - my wife for years pressured me to consider purchasing a luxury car. Few of them ever held any appeal to me with the exception of Jaguar and Mercedes. Jaguars, since owned by Ford, had lost all of their appeal and held no further interest, so we went to look at some Mercedes.
I sat in the Mercedes, and first noticed the fake wood dashboard and inset (plastic), the molded vinyl door panels and pulls, and the generally uninspired design of the seats, controls, dash panel, etc.
After my test drive, I took it back and said "I think there's something wrong with the car. I think the brake is stuck. It feels as though I'm pulling a block of lead behind the car." I was informed that this was the design of the vehicle, which weighed nearly 5,000 points despite being a 2+2 convertible sports coupe.

Other luxury cars - Audi, BMW, Lexus, etc - occasionally catch my interest, especially when I'm tooling around in my $12,000 6 year old Kia (originally purchased solely as airport transportation, but left to me in a divorce as my only vehicle), and then I realize that not only do I NOT want a luxury car, in fact I don't want ANY car at all. For the price of a luxury car, I would be much happier renting taxis and limos, or renting cars for the occasional use that I get from them. (I only keep the Kia because it is slightly more convenient that selling it, though I only drive it 5 or 6 days a month.)

And so, that is only one example of the kind of comparative analysis that I like to do with EVERYTHING - cars, homes, even choices of cities to live and work in. I say "If I were going to spend 'A', how would I most like to spend it". And so, it was important to me to decide if there was ANY reason a monohull sailboat, meeting my parameters, would be a better decision.

Still, this thread was a diversion from that. It's a strictly intellectual thread. It has little to do with an actual decision process, and very much to do with challenging the conventional wisdom with reason and analysis.

As has been previously stated "It is only of interest in an internet forum"... which is exactly why I posted it there!

In the long term, though, I think it will also be of interest to the general monohull cruising public as they see their options slowly disappear, as I anticipate will soon happen, and suspect is probably already happening. I know for a fact that the Florida Keys areas are becoming more and more inaccessible to deeply keeled boats all the time.
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Old 26-06-2012, 15:33   #84
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Re: Mono vs. Multi - Sailing Ability

[QUOTE=ArtM;978455]In the long term, though, I think it will also be of interest to the general monohull cruising public as they see their options slowly disappear, as I anticipate will soon happen, and suspect is probably already happening.[QUOTE]
That is true if you look only mainstreem production boats, and that's goes as well with multi's. With one offs you have all the spectrum to choose from
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Old 26-06-2012, 15:34   #85
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Re: Mono vs. Multi - Sailing Ability

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It's a strictly intellectual thread.
I think that might be pushing things a tad

Quote:
challenging the conventional wisdom with reason and analysis.
Ditto


Quote:
In the long term, though, I think it will also be of interest to the general monohull cruising public as they see their options slowly disappear, as I anticipate will soon happen, and suspect is probably already happening. I know for a fact that the Florida Keys areas are becoming more and more inaccessible to deeply keeled boats all the time.
Are your predictions using a Mayan calender by any chance?
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Old 26-06-2012, 15:40   #86
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Re: Mono vs. Multi - Sailing Ability

[QUOTE=TeddyDiver;978465][QUOTE=ArtM;978455]In the long term, though, I think it will also be of interest to the general monohull cruising public as they see their options slowly disappear, as I anticipate will soon happen, and suspect is probably already happening.
Quote:
That is true if you look only mainstreem production boats, and that's goes as well with multi's. With one offs you have all the spectrum to choose from
I meant their accessibility options, though the boat options are likely to thin out as well. I recently was cruising the Keys with a monohull sailboat with a reasonably shallow draft. It was all a matter of timing, navigating through shoals and sandbars, and some white knuckling by the boat's owner-captain.

Even after all of that, there were just many places we could not go, and according to him the list of those places was growing as more areas come under protection, dredging operations are reduced, and a lot of channel construction has simply come to a stop.
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Old 26-06-2012, 15:48   #87
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Re: Mono vs. Multi - Sailing Ability

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtM View Post

In the long term, though, I think it will also be of interest to the general monohull cruising public as they see their options slowly disappear, as I anticipate will soon happen, and suspect is probably already happening. I know for a fact that the Florida Keys areas are becoming more and more inaccessible to deeply keeled boats all the time.
Art if you are interested in a " global cruser" you will find the facilities for a cat are limited. This is not an insurmountable problem, but is just an example of one of the compromises. I am afraid the nirvana of facilities for cat owners will be a long way off.
The majority of long distance crusing boats are monohull. Even if this was to change overnight, as you predict, the glacial change of facilities in third world countries, means that extensive equipment for cats, worldwide, are a long way off.
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Old 26-06-2012, 15:50   #88
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Re: Mono vs. Multi - Sailing Ability

You can allways get a bilgekeeler or lifting keel mono...
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Old 26-06-2012, 16:00   #89
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Re: Mono vs. Multi - Sailing Ability

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You can allways get a bilgekeeler or lifting keel mono...
What benefits would you get, compared to a similarly featured catamaran?
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Old 26-06-2012, 16:01   #90
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Re: Mono vs. Multi - Sailing Ability

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The spreadsheets make it more fun for me.

Also, the realization that it is a myth that monohulls have inherently better performance characteristics
The day you join the 300 mile club, you can talk smak about how slow monos are..
I've got more than a few multi-day, open ocean miles under my keel and the only time Ive ever seen a multi-hull on the open water was when I was passing them..
You need to take your attitude back up on the porch, You dont have what it takes to play with the big dogs..............
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