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Old 25-06-2012, 12:32   #61
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Re: Mono vs. Multi - Sailing Ability

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Good, your transition has been completed... welcome! Now you have to choose Lagoon... or may be FP with the break away keels? No matter which one you choose, there is a community waiting for you here on CF where you can share your experience of the perfect boat!


Nick.
Almost - I have recognized my dilemma, thanks in part to input from here.

A 40+ catamaran is more boat than I want or need, and is certainly more expensive than I care to pay.
A 39- catamaran enters in a range which may not be comfortable at sea
A 45ish monohull would be more comfortable at sea, be properly sized, and perhaps better priced, but lacks the design features that I need.

So I'm trying to find an in between. The best ideas I have right now is to look for creative ways to lower the price of a catmaran, or seek a monohull that has the design features I want.

And THAT is really what this is all about. The performance thing was an interesting (to me) sidenote with no obvious connection to what I just stated, but it is connected in an indirect way - mainly because I was trying to decide if performance was a meaningful side-benefit of a monohull boat that would offset the downsides, and my conclusion is that it is not.

So I believe where I am now is in looking for creative ways to lower the acquisition and ownership costs of a 40+ cruising catamaran
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Old 25-06-2012, 12:36   #62
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Re: Mono vs. Multi - Sailing Ability

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Oh yea. That is one reason I bought a Gemini. For it's size (not many to choose from) it was fast. While I had it only a few years I was passed by only a few 40+ ft boats. One small one beat me........but then I saw he had a motor running. .
If only the Gemini were not so "closed" it would be exactly what I'm looking for. it's just too dark and claustrophobic for my taste, but it is otherwise a great vessel at a great price.

I'm looking for a Gemini-Lagoon cross!

Too bad Gemini only makes one model - I think - is that right? I've been told that several times
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Old 25-06-2012, 12:52   #63
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Re: Mono vs. Multi - Sailing Ability

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So I believe where I am now is in looking for creative ways to lower the acquisition and ownership costs of a 40+ cruising catamaran
Get lowballing
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Old 25-06-2012, 17:46   #64
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Originally Posted by ArtM

The opposite - my theme is "can I build a monohull with similar keel depth, top deck features, and interior volume which would sail BETTER than a catamaran"

And I think the answer is "no".

Each response I've seen contrary to this has missed the "similar keel depth" and "top deck features" portions. They continue to compare low-decked deep-keeled boats to high-decked shallow keeled boats, like a lagoon.

There are deep keeled low-decked catamarans, which could be compared - and such a boat would sail very well - possibly better than the monohull, owing to the lack of 4 tons of underwater ballast.

However, there are no monohulls with 3-4' draft in a cruising size, which is confusing the argument. Such a boat would clearly point far worse than any catamaran, and in fact would probably capsize immediately.
Maybe you are describing a macgregor, and yes they are a big compromise. The righting being supplied by water balllast...

However under power they outpace just about any sailboat out there...
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Old 25-06-2012, 17:46   #65
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Re: Mono vs. Multi - Sailing Ability

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If only the Gemini were not so "closed" it would be exactly what I'm looking for. it's just too dark and claustrophobic for my taste, but it is otherwise a great vessel at a great price.

I'm looking for a Gemini-Lagoon cross!

Too bad Gemini only makes one model - I think - is that right? I've been told that several times
A cross might be a Wildcat. There are some that are good out there I hear.

Only one Gem. Lots of folks wanted Tony to build a 40 ft Gem. But really, there are a lot of them out there from others.
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Old 25-06-2012, 17:49   #66
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On the contrary, a very large percentage of cruising people do choose just that way. If they didn't, the anchorages would not be full of Out Islands, Formosas, Island Traders, Whitby's, home built Ferro's, etc.

And a large percentage of cruising people chose the same way with multis.

Mark
"Purpose" may have been an ill chosen word.

The choices end up being a compromise. Once the livability factors are put in and maybe the seaworthiness factors (whatever they are) are put in the choice is often full keel, heavy displacement "comfort" boat.

Everyone wants a 15 knot boat at sea and a dockominium at hook.
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Old 25-06-2012, 21:47   #67
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Re: Mono vs. Multi - Sailing Ability

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Maybe you are describing a macgregor, and yes they are a big compromise. The righting being supplied by water balllast...

However under power they outpace just about any sailboat out there...
That's an impressive looking boat, and that price!! On the trailer for less than 25k!!

If I get a chance to look at one in person (I may be in California this fall) I'm definitely going to do so, and I might do something I said I WOULD NOT do - buy a recreational sailboat!! We'll see how it looks in person, but it looks like a very unique style. Thanks for the reference.
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Old 25-06-2012, 21:53   #68
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Re: Mono vs. Multi - Sailing Ability

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A cross might be a Wildcat. There are some that are good out there I hear.

Only one Gem. Lots of folks wanted Tony to build a 40 ft Gem. But really, there are a lot of them out there from others.

Well, by "cross" I mean I want a Lagoon for a Gemini price. The Wildcat seems to be priced similarly to the Lagoons.

You're right though, it does blend Lagoon like features with Gemini like features - probably a nice boat if it could be found at a good price.
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Old 25-06-2012, 23:44   #69
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Re: Mono vs. Multi - Sailing Ability

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where I am now is in looking for creative ways to lower the acquisition and ownership costs of a 40+ cruising catamaran
This must surely be the best market, ever, for your "creative ways" to bear fruit.

We certainly shared your objectives in our own search. It involved a lot of time and effort here, but we're now delighted with the result.

We wish you well...and will watch with interest for news of your success!
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Old 26-06-2012, 11:10   #70
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Re: Mono vs. Multi - Sailing Ability

Another data point to add
Today we had a 15nm sail, directly downwind in 7-15 k true breeze. Most of the time is was about 11k.
We sailed with full main and genoa. The Lagoon 410 sailed with full main and gennaker or screecher whatever they call it. They left 5 mins before us and arrived 15 after us, but they had to sail into wind to raise and lower their main. ( our boom furling main is very quick to raise and lower and it can be done downwind) also the last 2nm were motoring and our engine boat speed was a bit higher. Overall I think the sailing speeds were very close.

We rarely use our big gennaker and did not on this occasion, but my guess is it would have added 25% to our boat speed in these light conditions.

Interesting on a direct downwind course in light conditions I would have expected a cat to have much better boat speed. When the cat was using a big gennaker I would have expected them to arrive much sooner than us.
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Old 26-06-2012, 11:37   #71
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Re: Mono vs. Multi - Sailing Ability

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Another data point to add
Today we had a 15nm sail, directly downwind in 7-15 k true breeze. Most of the time is was about 11k.
We sailed with full main and genoa. The Lagoon 410 sailed with full main and gennaker or screecher whatever they call it. They left 5 mins before us and arrived 15 after us, but they had to sail into wind to raise and lower their main. ( our boom furling main is very quick to raise and lower and it can be done downwind) also the last 2nm were motoring and our engine boat speed was a bit higher. Overall I think the sailing speeds were very close.

We rarely use our big gennaker and did not on this occasion, but my guess is it would have added 25% to our boat speed in these light conditions.

Interesting on a direct downwind course in light conditions I would have expected a cat to have much better boat speed. When the cat was using a big gennaker I would have expected them to arrive much sooner than us.
Lagoons are not built for speed. You can't compare them to more performance oriented cats at all. They are heavy and have modest sail area. I think many of them are actually optimized for motoring -- nearly motor-sailers. Some people deride them as "floating condos", but in my opinion they really hit a certain niche very well. I don't actually know what's wrong with a "floating condo" -- it's a very comfortable and nice way to get out on the water, with a living room having a panoramic, ever-changing sea view. It is intended for a certain purpose.
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Old 26-06-2012, 11:45   #72
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Re: Mono vs. Multi - Sailing Ability

I enjoy the debate also, but if you think about it there should be no debate because these are two different types of sailing vessels. if you built a cat like a mono then it would not have the features we like about a cat. the large salon with a view. yes cats are stable when the wind is low but can be more scary than a mono when it blows.

there are attributes to both and negatives also.

I would love a cat for coastal cruising, but they cost significantly more and their interiors are not normally as nice as a mono. docking spaces are limited for cats. cats are more enjoyable for their views and layout. if it comes down to the dollar and versatility, the mono would win a debate. but they are not debatable because they are two different vessels. do you want to debate a corvette and a station wagon, they are both cars.

If i could afford a cat I would buy one for coastal cruising. large offshore cats are way out there in costs.
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Old 26-06-2012, 11:49   #73
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Re: Mono vs. Multi - Sailing Ability

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4) The monohull has a different stability factor that leads to a question of personal preference. However, in the cruising class, I suspect that the majority of "cruisers" will prefer the flat characteristic of a larger catamaran to the rolling and broaching motion of a very large monohull.
To each his own. Most cruisers get used to and grow to like the motion of their own type of boat. The real deal killer for me for cats in fact is the motion, which I find just incredibly disturbing and unpleasant.

Big monos do not typically have a "rolling and broaching motion", especially not stiff ones with deep, heavy keels. They have a more ship-like motion with a long roll period and great stability compared to other types of boat, and practically never any kind of yawing (I guess what you mean by "broaching"). This is what I like -- the ideal being the motion of a 90' Swan I spent a couple weeks sailing in the Gulf of Cortez. For me, this motion is actually physically pleasurable and in fact sometimes intensely so. I really like it when a bit of sea is running and the boat is rocking over the waves, somewhat like a horse cantering. I crave it when I'm on dry land; even feel it in my dreams.

This is totally subjective and there is no right or wrong to it. But I think the idea that most mono sailors are longing for the twitchy motion of a cat is clearly false -- it's an acquired taste, which apparently takes many miles to acquire. I think it might even be the case that many cat sailors don't actually like the motion of their boats, but find tolerating it a happy trade-off for no heeling. I can understand this -I love the motion of my boat, but merely tolerate the heeling on long upwind passages -- I don't know anyone who likes this.
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Old 26-06-2012, 12:00   #74
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Re: Mono vs. Multi - Sailing Ability

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Lagoons are not built for speed. You can't compare them to more performance oriented cats at all..
I realise Lagoon cats are amongst the slower cats, but the Lagoon 410 is the very model that the OP is considering buying.
I think also the cat models at this size for crusing are bit limited. Load a more performance related 40 foot cat, with narrower hulls with the weight needed for long distance crusing and their performance is going to suffer.
The answer is get a larger performance cat that can take the crusing load, but that gets very expensive, both in initial purchase cost and running cost.
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Old 26-06-2012, 12:06   #75
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Re: Mono vs. Multi - Sailing Ability

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The opposite - my theme is "can I build a monohull with similar keel depth, top deck features, and interior volume which would sail BETTER than a catamaran"

And I think the answer is "no".

Each response I've seen contrary to this has missed the "similar keel depth" and "top deck features" portions. They continue to compare low-decked deep-keeled boats to high-decked shallow keeled boats, like a lagoon.

There are deep keeled low-decked catamarans, which could be compared - and such a boat would sail very well - possibly better than the monohull, owing to the lack of 4 tons of underwater ballast.

However, there are no monohulls with 3-4' draft in a cruising size, which is confusing the argument. Such a boat would clearly point far worse than any catamaran, and in fact would probably capsize immediately.
My primary driving vehicle (if we leave aside London taxis) is a Range Rover. This car is in many ways the most miserable piece of s**t ever sold as an automobile. It was designed by BMW, but then before production started, BMW sold the company to Ford, and many of the design solutions were just not properly realized. And besides that, Ford couldn't resist sticking in some cheap and crappy item of gear or material, wherever it could, just to arbitrage on the difference in quality and price of a Ford Focus, and a supposedly premium automobile. It breaks with almost humorous regularity and has left me stranded many times. Yet I've been driving it for years, don't get rid of it, and in fact, I am even considering buying another one.

Why in the world??! Might one ask. Well -- you see, the RR has exactly and perfectly the right driving position for me. The way you sit in it, and the view out over the world you have from there is simply incomparable. The rear seats are a little higher than the front ones, and you have a superb view from there too. It's exactly the right size and shape for me, too. I could buy a BMW X5 -- but it's just a little too low, a little too small, a little too gloomy inside -- it's just not quite right, although as a machine it is 1000x better in every possible way than the RR. And even cheaper!

I'm telling all this to say -- again -- by analogy, that if cats grab you, if they just feel right in that panoramic salon and so forth -- why in the world do you need all this elaborate rationalization. Just do it, for goodness' sake. And by the way, I think your elaborate justification is mostly wrong -- I think for a given amount of money and interior volume you will get definitely better pointing ability, and equal and possibly better speed -- in a modern design mono compared to a non-performance oriented cat (and certainly a Lagoon) -- when both of these are loaded down with an average number of tons of supplies, cruising gear, fuel, water, spares, etc. The mono will be a number of feet longer. And you will be able to find one with a deck saloon which gives you some (not all) of the panorama of a cat.

But that is really not the point at all -- this is sport and it's supposed to be fun. You're supposed to buy what you like, not what comes out better on a spreadsheet. If what really grabs you and what is really important to you is the saloon, then for God's sake buy a boat with the kind of saloon you like. If ultimate performance is the most important thing, then buy a carbon cat with laminate sails and carbon mast, and keep the weight out of it, and have a blast. And so forth. Throw your spreadsheet away -- it will only confuse you.
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