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Old 24-06-2012, 14:04   #31
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Re: Mono vs. Multi - Sailing Ability

What we have here is rather typical I think; an aspirant catamaran buyer who can't deal with the facts and wants to change them so that his boat of choice is going to be perfect (in his mind) on every aspect of it's design.

This will probably work out very well, because I have encountered plenty examples of cat owners with that same state of mind, but trying to also make others believe that the facts have changed is a step too far and... fails miserably.

So, the choice is simple: live with the fact that every boat design has weak points, or change your perception of the facts if that makes you happy, or last choice: buy something else, like a timeshare condo or car etc.


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Old 24-06-2012, 14:32   #32
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Re: Mono vs. Multi - Sailing Ability

I think speed is often over rated by sailors, particularly those coming to crusing from a racing background.
Comfort is generally much more important for the crusing sailor than speed. Sitting back and reading I have often thought there is no point getting to the next destination quickly because the sailing is as comfortable as the next anchorage with the added advantage of catching a fish or seeing a whale, dolphin or albatross. Often we sail slower because it's easier. Downwind sailing is often jib alone. The main would add 2 or 3 extra knots, but in many circumstances why bother.
What is comfortable varies a lot from person to person. Some hate the heeling of a monohull others hate the pounding and flexing of a multihull. These things need to be experienced to decide your preferences.
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Old 24-06-2012, 17:37   #33
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Re: Mono vs. Multi - Sailing Ability

Nick, that's for the psycho-analysis, but I gave my purpose very clearly and succinctly and no reading-between-the-lines is needed.

I am considering a catamaran.
I am trying to determine if there would be a cost or other tangible/measurable benefit to buying a monohull.
My research is strongly suggesting that monohulls offer no inherent benefits over catamarans, and I'm seeking alternative opinions backed by some measure of rational argument.
Since this flies so strongly in the face of conventional wisdom, I'm sharing it with the group as it may add to the collective wisdom or knowledge.

So until I see some evidence to the contrary, I'm now firmly ensconced in the opinion that given similar windage, depth, internal volume, and sail plan, a catamaran offers equal, and probably better performance on many if not all points of sail, including windward, compared to any monohull.
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Old 24-06-2012, 17:55   #34
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Re: Mono vs. Multi - Sailing Ability

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Originally Posted by ArtM View Post
I'm now firmly ensconced in the opinion that given similar windage, depth, internal volume, and sail plan, a catamaran offers equal, and probably better performance on many if not all points of sail, including windward, compared to any monohull.
You sure? Cool, you chose option #2 that I discussed above Really, nothing wrong with that. There's crowds who think the same about their monohull too or even only their specific brand/type of monohull, so you might need to make more decisions ahead, but every group is on CF so no matter what you choose, you are good here


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Old 24-06-2012, 17:57   #35
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Re: Mono vs. Multi - Sailing Ability

Quote:
Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
What we have here is rather typical I think; an aspirant catamaran buyer who can't deal with the facts and wants to change them so that his boat of choice is going to be perfect (in his mind) on every aspect of it's design.

This will probably work out very well, because I have encountered plenty examples of cat owners with that same state of mind, but trying to also make others believe that the facts have changed is a step too far and... fails miserably.

So, the choice is simple: live with the fact that every boat design has weak points, or change your perception of the facts if that makes you happy, or last choice: buy something else, like a timeshare condo or car etc.


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Old 24-06-2012, 17:59   #36
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Re: Mono vs. Multi - Sailing Ability

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No .. rather a bus
I had that written down but replaced it with timeshare condo


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Old 24-06-2012, 18:03   #37
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Re: Mono vs. Multi - Sailing Ability

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I had that written down but replaced it with timeshare condo


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Old 24-06-2012, 18:16   #38
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Re: Mono vs. Multi - Sailing Ability

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Originally Posted by ArtM View Post
Nick, that's for the psycho-analysis, but I gave my purpose very clearly and succinctly and no reading-between-the-lines is needed.

I am considering a catamaran.
I am trying to determine if there would be a cost or other tangible/measurable benefit to buying a monohull.
My research is strongly suggesting that monohulls offer no inherent benefits over catamarans, and I'm seeking alternative opinions backed by some measure of rational argument.
Since this flies so strongly in the face of conventional wisdom, I'm sharing it with the group as it may add to the collective wisdom or knowledge.

So until I see some evidence to the contrary, I'm now firmly ensconced in the opinion that given similar windage, depth, internal volume, and sail plan, a catamaran offers equal, and probably better performance on many if not all points of sail, including windward, compared to any monohull.
There are a lot of advantages and drawbacks when comparing a monohull and catamaran. The relative benefits and drawbacks of these caracterististics will vary considerably depending on your personal requirements.
The performance differences are reasonably small. If you compare a retractable keel monohull like an Ovni with a similar sized ( internal volume not LOA) Lagoon I do not think there is much practical difference in overall crusing speed. ( i think the lagoon would probably win but the diefference would not be great) If making a selection I would not base my desion primarily on performance there are other differences that are far more significant.
(The Lagoon and Ovni have a similar minimum draft, the sail area of the Ovni is a bit higher, but slightly easier to handel than the Laoon.)
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Old 25-06-2012, 00:49   #39
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Re: Mono vs. Multi - Sailing Ability

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Originally Posted by ArtM View Post
The conventional wisdom says yes, but I don't think it's true, and therefore I don't think that it's a major factor in choosing a cruising boat - it's important to me, because I am choosing a cruising boat.
Cruising boat and performance is an oxymoron. The more comfortable you get the slower you go.

So why all the drama about performance? You can't buy the mono you are talking about and no one is designing one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtM View Post
So until I see some evidence to the contrary, I'm now firmly ensconced in the opinion that given similar windage, depth, internal volume, and sail plan, a catamaran offers equal, and probably better performance on many if not all points of sail, including windward, compared to any monohull.
It seems your recurring theme is - Can I make a monohull design that sails as poorly as a Catamaran. I got no dog in this fight but that's what I have read 20 times in this thread. I don't think that you are really wanting to make that argument but, yes - You can make a monohull that sails poorly.

But monohull sailors don't typically choose poorly performing monhulls on purpose.

There are monohull boats that might be close in comparison to what you are talking about - motor-sailors and pilot-house boats - and yes it is generally considered they sail poorly.

The mono-multi debate will never end but here is what I think I know...

For similar internal volume - mono >45 feet
- the mono will carry the same load faster - i.e. retain perfomance due to loading (Hmmm... A good question is for same volume boat is the initial empty weight of the mono heavier? So is the payload ability the same and both gorss out the same?)
- The mono might be cheaper to acquire (similar build quality assumed) but is much more likely to be cheaper to operate
- The catamaran is likely more comfortable in moderate to easy seas than a mono which will be more comfortable in bigger seas
- The mono will telegraph its intents a lot better than a catamaran and a catamaran is more likely to need to be sailed "by the numbers"
- A mono is more likely to right itself after a knockdown and may survive a 360 roll over. You may be able to live on the bottom of a capsized catamaran. I don't by the story that either a mono-or multi is "unsinkable."
- The catamaran wins hands down at anchor for comfort.
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Old 25-06-2012, 01:29   #40
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Re: Mono vs. Multi - Sailing Ability

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Cruising boat and performance is an oxymoron. The more comfortable you get the slower you go.
Mmmm... I'm always puzzled when people make some statement to that effect, because it's not how I experience it.

I guess it depends on one's subjective view of what constitutes "comfort".

It's like mattresses: I can't abide a deep, soft mattress, but to many that's the acme of comfortable perfection.

My personal favourite boats to cruise across oceans can go like the clappers, and frequently do.

One of the best trips I've done in recent times involved being hard on the wind for five days straight, because that's where the destination was, and had to be.

Luckily the boat concerned, while it's not a contender in harbour racing, happens to perform extraordinarily well hard on the wind offshore, even (within the limits of what a 40' cruising boat can aspire to) in strong winds. We had moderate gale maybe 30% of the time, and some notoriously difficult capes to round.

The thing about having the ability to go fast: When you need to do something which is unpleasant or difficult, you can slow a fast boat down. (Unless you're going downwind, in which case speed generally enhances comfort).

The thing which - to my way of thinking - made the crucial difference, so that the trip in question was a delight when it could have been a horror-show, was that when conditions were tough, we hove to for all meals.
We'd lose a handful of miles each time, but the difference for morale and digestion far outweighed it, and when we went back on watch, we sailed the boat to the utmost of our ability, and so much better that I'd guess the overall passage time was not greatly impacted.

We made a point of hand steering and "giving our all" when on watch, which meant - once we were acclimatised - we were nicely worn out come the end of our stint, so that we slept like babies in spite of the pounding.

My feeling is that the most important morale benefits arose from having had some respite, some civilised living (even wine with meals, once we'd adjusted to the "new realities") and regular social connection.

A slower boat could possibly have given us a quiet enough ride that the benefits of heaving to for meals would be hard to sell ... but we'd STILL be out there !
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Old 25-06-2012, 01:33   #41
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Re: Mono vs. Multi - Sailing Ability

A shorter version of my take on this:

Upwind, slow is mental torture, fast is physical hardship.

Downwind, slow is mental and physical hardship (at least, in most monohulls)

Fast downwind can be great (but may be scary if the vessel and crew are not well adapted)
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Old 25-06-2012, 01:38   #42
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Re: Mono vs. Multi - Sailing Ability

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Originally Posted by noelex 77 View Post
The ARC should give some good information does anyone know how similarly sailed cats and mono do in terms of crossing times. I would be particularly interested in those boats crusing rather than in race mode.
Hello Noelex,

You can find the ARC results here;
World Cruising Club: ARC results


lots of data,except who was racing and who was cruising?


plenty of mono's/multis entering this years arc;
Entry List for World Cruising Club: ARC

Cheers,
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Old 25-06-2012, 02:30   #43
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Re: Mono vs. Multi - Sailing Ability

And at the end of the ARC we will no doubt see an analysis that proves that multis are slow, because a whole heap of floating condos just plodded along.

The Freydis 49 should be the best (not necessarily fastest) multi in the fleet.
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Old 25-06-2012, 03:34   #44
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Re: Mono vs. Multi - Sailing Ability

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtM View Post
Nick, that's for the psycho-analysis, but I gave my purpose very clearly and succinctly and no reading-between-the-lines is needed.

I am considering a catamaran.
I am trying to determine if there would be a cost or other tangible/measurable benefit to buying a monohull.
My research is strongly suggesting that monohulls offer no inherent benefits over catamarans, and I'm seeking alternative opinions backed by some measure of rational argument.
Since this flies so strongly in the face of conventional wisdom, I'm sharing it with the group as it may add to the collective wisdom or knowledge.

So until I see some evidence to the contrary, I'm now firmly ensconced in the opinion that given similar windage, depth, internal volume, and sail plan, a catamaran offers equal, and probably better performance on many if not all points of sail, including windward, compared to any monohull.
Similar depth (I guess you mean draft) -- there is no contest. A mono cannot compare to a cat. My 54' mono draws 2.5 meters. A similar interior volume cat will draw half or less than that.

Upwind ability -- depends on the specific boat, and probably the mono has an advantage in most cases. If we compare production boats -- a 45' Lagoon will definitely not point as well as a 53' Jeanneau. Now whether the skipper can use -- or will feel like using -- that potential or not is a different question. More performance oriented cats will point as well as any monos, at least, if they are not too much loaded down.

Speed -- also depends on the specific boat. A 50+ foot mono with a bulb keel and spade rudder will probably be faster on most points of sail than 40-odd foot cats which are not performance cats. An average 40-odd foot cat will be faster than a 50+ foot mono with a long fin keel and skeg rudder. A performance cat will be faster than any of the above (you just can't get around wetted surface).

But cats lose their performance very fast when they get loaded down -- so in full cruising trim, probably most modern monos will be faster than most volume-comparable cats. Larger monos will keep their performance much better as they get loaded down, than any cats. So probably another slight advantage for monos, again depending on the specific boat and how much gear you plan to have on board.

I think we've established that cost will be about the same for similar levels of quality and similar interior volume, so neither cat nor mono has any inherent advantage there.

When I bought my boat, I didn't even consider cats, simply because cats -- their motion, their layouts -- are not to my taste. I chartered a cat for two weeks in the Caribbean to double check that. So I did not run a spreadsheet to try to score points on which type is inherently better than the other. Performance was important to me, so I did not consider old-tech keel designs. In the end I bought something with an advanced bulb keel and a long waterline. It was not a production boat, so I paid extra for that, too. It worked out well for me -- I got what I liked, although I had to spend quite a lot of money. To get really good performance and real comfort, you have to go larger and longer. I have never been passed by any cat in any conditions, or practically by anyone else for that matter other than mobos, and I am not an ace sail trimmer. Long passages are particularly nice on a larger, faster boat -- size and length gives you motion comfort, and going fast just feels better. I will have to respectfully disagree with Noelex that speed is not important in a cruising boat. If you are really not in a hurry, it is much more pleasant to drop back a knot or two from 9 or 10 knots, than from 7 or 8, or God forbid, from 5 or 6 like in my old boat.

What I'm trying to say is that I don't think -- in my humble opinion -- you're going about your decision the right way. Let your heart talk to you. If you like that cat, just buy it. You don't need to justify it with performance numbers and so forth.
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Old 25-06-2012, 04:28   #45
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Re: Mono vs. Multi - Sailing Ability

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Troup View Post
Mmmm... I'm always puzzled when people make some statement to that effect, because it's not how I experience it.

I guess it depends on one's subjective view of what constitutes "comfort".

It's like mattresses: I can't abide a deep, soft mattress, but to many that's the acme of comfortable perfection.

My personal favourite boats to cruise across oceans can go like the clappers, and frequently do.

One of the best trips I've done in recent times involved being hard on the wind for five days straight, because that's where the destination was, and had to be.

Luckily the boat concerned, while it's not a contender in harbour racing, happens to perform extraordinarily well hard on the wind offshore, even (within the limits of what a 40' cruising boat can aspire to) in strong winds. We had moderate gale maybe 30% of the time, and some notoriously difficult capes to round.

The thing about having the ability to go fast: When you need to do something which is unpleasant or difficult, you can slow a fast boat down. (Unless you're going downwind, in which case speed generally enhances comfort).

The thing which - to my way of thinking - made the crucial difference, so that the trip in question was a delight when it could have been a horror-show, was that when conditions were tough, we hove to for all meals.
We'd lose a handful of miles each time, but the difference for morale and digestion far outweighed it, and when we went back on watch, we sailed the boat to the utmost of our ability, and so much better that I'd guess the overall passage time was not greatly impacted.

We made a point of hand steering and "giving our all" when on watch, which meant - once we were acclimatised - we were nicely worn out come the end of our stint, so that we slept like babies in spite of the pounding.

My feeling is that the most important morale benefits arose from having had some respite, some civilised living (even wine with meals, once we'd adjusted to the "new realities") and regular social connection.

A slower boat could possibly have given us a quiet enough ride that the benefits of heaving to for meals would be hard to sell ... but we'd STILL be out there !
It sounds like a great trip.
But with all due respect it's not like any of the sailing the long distance, full time crusing sailors and the OP is intending to do
Think autopilot 100% of the time, trimming the sails once a day whether they need it or not ( OK I am exaggerating the sail trim bit, but it gives you the general idea.)

I have occasionally met crusers who push there boat and crew hard, but they usually quickly learn or drop out. They also tend to spend much longer than any time saved trying to repair torn sails etc

If crusing is hard work you are doing it wrong
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