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Old 27-06-2012, 19:27   #181
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Re: Mono vs. Multi - Sailing Ability

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
no one cares all that much that most cruising cats don't go to windward very well -- you just motor -- no problem. I contend that modern cruising cats are mostly really motor-sailers.
There are plenty of posts discussing how to improve upwind performance of cruising cats...and there are plenty of monohulls that perform very poorly upwind!

In sailing our cruising cat (our "motor-sailer"!) from Italy to Australia, including both the Mediterranean and Tasman seas in winter, we experienced HEAPS of upwind sailing. We didn't enjoy the upwind bits as much as the wind aft of the beam, of course, but we certainly didn't "just motor". In fact, we consumed ~1500litres of fuel covering just under 14000nm...and some simple arithmetic on those numbers will confirm we left the sails up, and the engines off.

As far as whether we "care" about upwind performance, we draw again on a remark from a dear friend (and VERY experienced yachtsman) that "nothing goes to windward like a 747"...
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Old 27-06-2012, 19:28   #182
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Re: Mono vs. Multi - Sailing Ability

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Originally Posted by D&D View Post
According to the latest figures from the Marine Surveyors Association and the British Marine Federation, total boats in the UK represent ~0.8% of the population whereas the same figure in Australia is ~4%. The Surveyors also remark that "Australia has the world’s second highest percentage of boat owning people per head of population"...and we understand NZ may be the highest.
I stand corrected!
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Old 27-06-2012, 19:32   #183
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Re: Mono vs. Multi - Sailing Ability

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Originally Posted by D&D View Post
There are plenty of posts discussing how to improve upwind performance of cruising cats...and there are plenty of monohulls that perform very poorly upwind!
This is true indeed. I have often said that very few miles actually get made upwind in cruising boats loaded with gear. Another reason why upwind performance is perhaps not the most important thing in the world.

But on the other hand, a boat which actually can go to windward efficiently -- and I think that means simply that it goes upwind well enough to be worth the trouble at least occasionally -- is a very precious thing. So I guess you can say that it's not important but yet at the same time it is a very important quality of a sailing boat . . .
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Old 27-06-2012, 19:36   #184
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Re: Mono vs. Multi - Sailing Ability

I dont disgaree with your point but need to modify it somewhat for me:

One metric ton of water, I carry 400 litres and that can do us for any passage if we are careful

three-quarters of a ton of diesel fuel (when my tanks are full)I carry 150 kgs of fuel and that will get me 750 mile at a push.
Half ton of ground tackle I have an upsized anchor and 60 metres of chain and 40 metres of nylon, about 100 kilo all up.
Diesel generator weighing 500 pounds Solar Panels
Spare petrol generator Yep - but only 12 kilo
All kinds of shore power cords, extension cords, hose reels, etc. Dont have shore power, dont need it, but do have 1 extension cord.
Probably half ton of tools and spare parts -- filling an entire cabin -- including bench vice, drill press, complete inventory of power and hand tools, etc., etc., etc. Maybe 20-30 kilos worth of tools and spares.
Complete kitchen inventory with dishes for 8 people, pots, pans, appliances, etc., etc., etc. Place setting for 6
Complete inventory of winter and summer bedding for seven beds and umpteen pillows, etc. Winter - summer its all pretty close here.
Probably 100 pounds of books The only point at which we get close, though I have taken to podcasts and ebooks lately
Probably 300 pounds of various provisions at any given time Maybe 100 kilo max
Several cases of wine plus a few cases of beer and a few cases of liquor not so much
Two life rafts weighing 100 pounds each Nil
Spare anchors and ground tackle Yep but its a fortress and is light
Probably 1000 feet of various kinds of line, some of it 1" thick Some but not near that
Complete inventory of foul weather gear I have a rain jacket
Complete wardrobe of my clothing some shorts and t shirts
Large collection of DVD's and electronic gear to watch them on.
Computers, printers, etc.
All electrinic and on one Macbook
Snorkel gear for several people Yep
Barbecue But of course

.........
Quote:
Few people who spend extended amounts of time at sea have dramatically less than this. In a smaller multihull, it is a real problem to carry necessary cruising gear without severe degradation of performance -- it's one of the things owners talk about the most.
True, my advice to those people, is to quite sincerely buy a Mono. Quite genuinely if I see a person that needs to have loads of stuff I try and recommend that correct boat.
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Old 27-06-2012, 20:04   #185
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Re: Mono vs. Multi - Sailing Ability

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
Cruising cats are popular in two places I know -- the Caribbean and Australia, which do not account for such a large part of the world market. Elsewhere they make up a stably low proportion of the fleet. In the UK, where I sail, which is the most sailing nation in the world, I guess that they must amount to 0.1% of cruising boats -- one out of a thousand, with no change I have noticed over decades. Although cruising catamarans have been produced in the UK for decades.
I Holland, which is the most sailing nation of the right side up Northern Hemisphere (double the number of the Brits, see Sailing & Boating in the Netherlands: Licences & Boat Registration - AngloINFO South Holland (Netherlands)) catamarans account for the same near zero number as in the UK. I believe it is the same for the whole of North-western Europe, with just the French at higher numbers.

ciao!
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Old 28-06-2012, 04:52   #186
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On the twenty years we've owned multis I've noticed a huge increase in the amount of cats on the East Coast of the US and the Bahamas. I mean a HUGE increase. I would find it hard to believe someone wouldnt realize that cats are the rage right now.
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Old 28-06-2012, 04:57   #187
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Dockhead, why two life rafts? Is one a spare in case one doesn't inflate or do you need one for the people and one to safely transport all your household items ashore?
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Old 28-06-2012, 06:28   #188
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Re: Mono vs. Multi - Sailing Ability

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
Ah! This reflects a lack of cruising experience -- or maybe "misadvanture" is the better word.

Look around your house -- what do you see? If you sail long distances and spend weeks or months at a time on board, you will have more or less what you have in your house and in your garage, on board. Of course in less space you will be more disciplined and more selective, but you will not have an order of magnitude less stuff on board than at home. It is literally tons.

On my boat, just off the top of my head:

One metric ton of water, three-quarters of a ton of diesel fuel (when my tanks are full)
Half ton of ground tackle
Diesel generator weighing 500 pounds
Spare petrol generator
All kinds of shore power cords, extension cords, hose reels, etc.
Probably half ton of tools and spare parts -- filling an entire cabin -- including bench vice, drill press, complete inventory of power and hand tools, etc., etc., etc.
Complete kitchen inventory with dishes for 8 people, pots, pans, appliances, etc., etc., etc.
Complete inventory of winter and summer bedding for seven beds and umpteen pillows, etc.
Probably 100 pounds of books
Probably 300 pounds of various provisions at any given time
Several cases of wine plus a few cases of beer and a few cases of liquor
Two life rafts weighing 100 pounds each
Spare anchors and ground tackle
Probably 1000 feet of various kinds of line, some of it 1" thick
Complete inventory of weather gear">foul weather gear
Complete wardrobe of my clothing
Large collection of DVD's and electronic gear to watch them on.
Computers, printers, etc.
Snorkel gear for several people
Barbecue

and it goes on and on and on -- your whole life. I guess this must be 4 tons or so above light ship displacement, and nothing is really superfluous (I am pretty ruthless about throwing stuff out).

Propelling all that at double digit speeds across the ocean is quite a job.

Few people who spend extended amounts of time at sea have dramatically less than this. In a smaller multihull, it is a real problem to carry necessary cruising gear without severe degradation of performance -- it's one of the things owners talk about the most.



If you look at the amount of gear we carry on our 34' trimaran, (our ONLY home for 12 of our 16 years cruising her...) I'd say that this is FAR more "in volume" than ANY "comparable" 34' monohull could carry, without a HUGE mound of view blocking, COG raising "stuff" lashed down on deck! Down below on this monohull would be utter Kayos too. Monohulls carry more "weight", but NOT necessarily more "stuff". We do omit tools that don't fit anything on the boat, unnecessary "crap", and even chapters in books that are in Japanese, but we do NOT omit things that we need.

Monohulls carry lots of weight that they DON'T need, and their occupants don't tend to think like backpackers. We have TWO entire extra hulls out there for the huge, smelly "seasteading" gear that we carry, out of the way, dry, and with a low COG. The Amas are mostly FULL, but we can still get to everything, and total weight added is less than 200 pounds to each hull. (Spearguns, fishing poles, spreader poles and awnings, inflatable kayaks, dinghy accessories, empty viewing buckets, fenders, and empty jugs, are LIGHT, but take up a LOT of space)! There is STILL a weight allowance for one heavy item in each ama. The OB motor in one side, and scuba tank in the other...

I'm talking trimarans here, NOT catamarans, who have fewer seasteading advantages, IMO...

The original question was comparing performance, apples to apples... Without a doubt, our Searunner 34 will outperform "in all respects", AND be more seaworthy "in all respects", than any SHOAL draft, 34', high performance monohull, that is a full time liveaboard for two, covering tens of thousands of miles while visiting dozens of countries, and hundreds of islands, over more than a decade, WHILE CARRYING THE EXACT SAME AMOUNT OF GEAR AND ACCOUTERMENTS... Apples to apples, its a no brainer.

(Previous post)... In high winds, we can sail off the wind at double digits all day, even in huge seas. Like when we left Cat & Gun in the Bahama,s at dawn, (in 15' waves , crossing the Gulf Stream with a somewhat northerly 38+ knots of wind)... and had the hook down in Biscayne Bay by mid day!

In the photos that I included, the mast head wind indicator was responding to a lurch. We are sheeted in as hard as possible. We actually had to pop an emergency tack when the reef was only 50' to leeward! We were going to windward @ around 9 knots, sailing tighter than 45% off of the apparent wind, and it was BITCHIN. With our centerboard drawing 7', we side slip way less than mini keel cats, or 34' shallow draft, "cruising" monohulls, while going faster.

To compare our Searunner 34 to a similar monohull, FAIRLY:

It would be compared to a 34' variable draft hull configuration, "cruising" boat with (3' to 7' draft) This means a centerboard boat.

It would have a reliable diesel, with CV joint/thrust bearing, a fuel polishing system, dual tanks, and essential spares.

This 34' monohull would be a FULL TIME liveaboard for two, (12 years of it), loaded with photo albums, tax records, the works... It would have 5 tool boxes, with spares... Autopilot, windlass, RADAR, water maker, SSB, refrigeration, dozens of fans and lights, 2 sinks, 2 plumbed in showers, etc... ALL would be run, 100% self sufficiently, by the mounted solar panels.

This boat would have a hard dodger, that TWO can stand on, a bimini top, and full cockpit enclosure, that works at a dock, out on the hook, or beating to windward in a gale.

This 34' monohull would have a 14' parachute sea anchor, drogue, 500' rode with float & retrieval gear, and FIVE anchors with separate rodes, sufficient to weather a hurricane, (on a dozen SEPARATE occasions, over 16 years) Oh yes... Don't forget the 4 fenders, two boat hooks, and dozen dock lines.

It would have one single bunk, and TWO that are 4' X 7'. with full fuel & water tankage, as well as 35 gallons of "holding" capacity.

Onboard would be 10 gallons of "extra" diesel fuel in jugs, 5 of gasoline, 20#s of propane, (with extra), a BBQ grill, and 8 large empty jugs for ferrying liquids out to the boat.

This 34' monohull would have half a dozen awning sections, with one having spreader poles and measuring 14' X 16", (that can stand in 40 knots of wind).

It would have a garden sprayer, (shower), 5 gal clothes washing bucket, similar "viewing" bucket, as well as wetsiuts & free dive gear for two, and full SCUBA (+ tank) for one.

There would be a 10' RIB, with numerous accessories, and an 8 HP motor, as well as an inflatable kayak with paddle and accessories.

Of coarse, it would include lots of fishing gear with spears, spear guns, rod n reel, etc... as well as multi season clothes, bedding, shoes, and all of the books & manuals to keep this full time "only" home running properly.

My point was... that THIS 34' monohull would "possibly" be as tight winded, but not more so. It would be MUCH slower under all points of sail, in all winds.
Most obviously, it would be so overcrowded and covered with "crap", that it would be a nightmare to sail. It would have stuff tied ALL OVER the decks, poor visibility, and it would be total kayos, from stem to stern. Now... sail it tens of thousands of miles, >20 countries, hundreds of islands, over 16 years.

Oh yes, you have to build and maintain it yourself too, sometimes while employed...

IMO... To make a comparison real, it has to be "cruising" boat to cruising boat, of similar seaworthiness, size, draft, load, intent, duration, and occupancy.
M.

In the photo at a dock below, that says: "Don't feed the birds", we had just made landfall, after a straight 8 day sail from Culebra PR to the Beaufort NC inlet. It was the last leg of three legs from Trinidad to Beaufort NC. (12 sea days, total)! Two days to Dominica, two more to Culebra, and 8 more to Beaufort. Not pressing hard, taking it REALLY easy, just a really decent, HEAVILY loaded passage, on a small, full time liveaboard trimaran...

The year before, we had sailed, mostly to windward, NON stop from Georgetown Bahamas, to PR. in 5 days. Three days east, out to sea, and two more days down, in high winds, and huge waves in the "Mona".
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Old 28-06-2012, 06:48   #189
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Re: Mono vs. Multi - Sailing Ability

Jeez, I hate to feed trolls, but ran across this article about Privilege restarting business. They had folded a while ago and their assets were bought with the intention of restarting the business.

They make Privilege catamarans and Feeling monohulls.

There is an interesting tidbit out of the announcement: "For the time being, only the Marc Lombard-designed Privilège catamarans between 44′ to 75′ will be relaunched with the reintroduction of the Feeling range of monohulls delayed until the market situation changes for the better."

Privilège Marine restarts catamaran production at Les Sables d’Olonne yard

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Old 28-06-2012, 06:52   #190
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Re: Mono vs. Multi - Sailing Ability

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IMO... To make a comparison real, it has to be "cruising" boat to cruising boat, of similar seaworthiness, size, draft, load, intent, duration, and occupancy.
M.
Mark you obviously love your boat, which is great to see, but if you do want to compare fairly with a monohull you need to allow for the much wider beam of your boat.
To compare a 34 foot trimaran with a 34 foot monohull is not appropriate, the wider beam of the trimaran incurs greater costs in the same way a longer monohull would.
I think if you compared your boat to a similar sized(not LOA) Ovni for example you would have a valid comparison. The difference between the Ovni and your boat is vast with a long list of advantages and drawbacks. The major difference would be he Ovni would be more expensive and slower, but safer and more seaworthy.
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Old 28-06-2012, 06:56   #191
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Re: Mono vs. Multi - Sailing Ability

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The major difference would be he Ovni would be more expensive and slower, but safer and more seaworthy.
I sincerely doubt that a more seaworthy small craft than the Searunner has ever been built.
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Old 28-06-2012, 07:58   #192
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Re: Mono vs. Multi - Sailing Ability

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Mark you obviously love your boat, which is great to see, but if you do want to compare fairly with a monohull you need to allow for the much wider beam of your boat.
To compare a 34 foot trimaran with a 34 foot monohull is not appropriate, the wider beam of the trimaran incurs greater costs in the same way a longer monohull would.
I think if you compared your boat to a similar sized(not LOA) Ovni for example you would have a valid comparison. The difference between the Ovni and your boat is vast with a long list of advantages and drawbacks. The major difference would be he Ovni would be more expensive and slower, but safer and more seaworthy.
Well in some ways we do incur more costs, like 10% more to haul out, (with FAR fewer options), and a lot more to paint her every 12 years or so. On the other hand, we NEVER paid extra for our always side to dockage.

Our boat's 34' size is a fair comparison to a 34' monohull for sure. Width gives us more storage room, but no more stability than a monohulls lead does, and they might argue less. In comparing boats, WL length, is a size for size comparison.

Costs? Our costs would be FAR less across the board than an OVNI, even of the same size. For one thing we built and maintain her ourselves. For another, those who buy Searunners, pay a SMALL fraction of the Ovni's cost up front. By Seasteading, which is a more self sufficient lifestyle, ALWAYS anchored out when out cruising, (solar powered), we cruise on about $10,000 / year. That's for TWO people, and this averages in boat maintenance and replacements over decades. The Ovni would be a much more expensive boat, and its owners, "probably", would live a much more expensive lifestyle. Over decades... We were asked about performance comparisons here, not which is a better boat. I stuck to MY boat as an example, to be specific. A 34' Ovni, empty, would be a great local cruiser, with shallow draft too. It would STILL have less performance than our Searunner, empty or loaded. The Ovni, could not possibly be a safe cruising home in any respect, if loaded with ALL of the stuff I've mentioned. There just isn't room.

Apples to apples, size wise, the Searunner is a higher performance boat, with an ultimate safety record that's better than almost any boat out there.

Having made that point. I love the Ovni! If I switch to monohulls, (which have a LOT of advantages, like in cold weather, finding boatyards, and finding dockage), Then I would consider the Ovni. Thing is, I would also have to be rich! People who build boats, usually do so because they can't afford to do otherwise...

For me, the deal breaker in my choice of boat, isn't the number of hulls, its the draft. I love to cruise the Bahamas, inside the Belize reef, up the Rio Dulce (Guatemala), and anchor in shallow gunkholes locally. Draft is everything for me, and the Ovni is shallow draft, when needed, AND with a flat bottom, can dry out just like us. The thing is, that to carry the same amount of gear, and still be seaworthy, it would have to be MUCH larger.

Another monohull (one off), I came to love, is our friends Wolfgang & Barbra's Momo. It was a shallow draft bilge keeler, of 36'. It was bare aluminum, and REALLY low maintenance. I was impressed when they visited our creek in a cold time of year, how cozy it was down below, due to double pane glass ports and an insulated hull. It was perfect for the trip to inland Canada that they had taken, as well as the crossing of oceans. She too could sit on her bottom, and drew just 4'. Our Searunner however, draws just 3' (board up), can carry more stuff, can't sink if a hose comes off or something, is better for seasteading, and is MUCH higher performance.

This doesn't make ours a better boat, just better suited to the kind of warm destination, shallow water cruising that we do. Monohulls are better in some respects, and if I switch I would NOT give up shallow draft. I stick by my original assertion, that if PERFORMANCE is the only question, that for a similar load (volume wise), occupancy, draft, WL length, and intent, our Searunner 34 will be higher performance and safer than ANY comparably sized monohull.

Now if we planned to cruise in Canada, or continue to live at the dock here, (with winter temps in the teens), I would give up performance for a boat like Momo!

This seems to have digressed to which is "better", rather than has higher performance. The higher performance issue, size for size, is a no brainer.

Photo: Momo, a monohull that I love!

M.
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Old 28-06-2012, 09:06   #193
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Re: Mono vs. Multi - Sailing Ability

A Ovni is made in Aluminium, and this is a extra feauture in terms of safety, a colision with a whale or a hard grounding in a reef can be bad for a Ovni, but for a searunner can be the end.

In terms of maintenance, topsides and sometimes the deck in a Ovni come in bare aluminium , meaning no maintenance at all, no wood in deck, no varnish, just aluminium and stainles steel, the only sensible precaution in a Ovni is electrolisis and disimilar metals, all the rest is the same as in a searunner, one engine, one kitchen, one sail, one anchor, 3 hulls to paint in a searunner etc...

Or take a look at old Garcia Pasoa aluminium yachts , better than Ovnis and complety made in bare aluminium , meaning no maintenance at all for hulls or decks , just antifouling , zincs , prop.

So to me in terms of safety , i choose a Ovni for the simple reason that a Aluminium hull is stronger and lighter that any glass or plywood hull.
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Old 28-06-2012, 09:12   #194
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Re: Mono vs. Multi - Sailing Ability

Framing is not a problem!
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Old 28-06-2012, 09:27   #195
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Re: Mono vs. Multi - Sailing Ability

Garcia Pasoa.
Aluminium hull and deck.
crash-proof and self-righting if ever capsized.
Shallow draft, ballasted swing keel, cockpit control, (3.8'-10.0', 1.2m-3.1m
Watertight bulkheads & hull comprised of numerous crash resistant boxes
Ballast is integral to hull, 10,363 lbs, (4,700 kgs),
Dual heavy duty, aluminum rudders, canted outwards, very positive control .

Simple as a boat to go anywhere in the world, include Ice.
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