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Old 08-04-2019, 11:38   #31
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Re: MOB Recovery Technique

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Just a safety reminder. If there is ANY question as to whether the MOB has crotch straps, scream at them to keep their elbows down! They won't slide out. This is also true if you are grabbing a foam PFD or even their rain gear.




With or without crotch straps, you need to hold on like that. The crotch straps of most life jackets won't hold your weight in air! They are apparently designed only to hold your weight in water, which is totally bogus.
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Old 08-04-2019, 11:46   #32
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Re: MOB Recovery Technique

Dockhead,

I don't mean to be the fly in the ointment, but how does anyone "Practice, practice, practice" if you require a full crew and rescue swimmer to do it?

Can you help us come up with a way for a single person onboard to bring someone back aboard, since most of us lack a fully trained crew and usually sail with just one partner.
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Old 08-04-2019, 12:05   #33
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Re: MOB Recovery Technique

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Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
Dockhead,

I don't mean to be the fly in the ointment, but how does anyone "Practice, practice, practice" if you require a full crew and rescue swimmer to do it?

Can you help us come up with a way for a single person onboard to bring someone back aboard, since most of us lack a fully trained crew and usually sail with just one partner.

Doing this double handed, with the MOB already debilitated, is a huge challenge, not to say, a death sentence. I can hardly imagine how to do it, to be honest. This is just one of a number of reasons why I sail with a full crew. I have single handed across the North Sea -- in rough weather! -- but you just can't call that safe, and I don't think I'll do that again.



So I don't know if I can be of much help to you. I think letting yourself over the side in the manner you've devised might work if the sea state is not such that the boat is rolling. In fact that's about the only technique I've heard of which could get you close enough to the victim.


I do know stories where a victim has been grabbed with a boat hook, and then hooked on by a person leaning over the rail, lying on his belly on deck. But that wouldn't work with our freeboard. On a larger boat with big freeboard, I think your technique is better.



How about parbuckling? That would also be very tricky double handed, but you might have a shot. Perhaps a variation on parbuckling, with a net in the after end of the parbuckle, to catch the victim as you scoop him up?



Or Galerider -- hang it into the water from the end of the boom, preventered out, and scoop up the victim. That's something at least you can practice with a dummy.
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Old 08-04-2019, 14:06   #34
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Re: MOB Recovery Technique

This might be helpful for the situation where the MOB has the function to execute their part
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Old 08-04-2019, 14:07   #35
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Re: MOB Recovery Technique

Second attempt... for when the MOB is able to do their part.

Watch "Man overboard recovery by PBO: Yacht Elevator" on YouTube
https://youtu.be/3EpTpALzjmI
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Old 13-04-2019, 19:16   #36
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Re: MOB Recovery Technique

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Second attempt... for when the MOB is able to do their part.

Watch "Man overboard recovery by PBO: Yacht Elevator" on YouTube
https://youtu.be/3EpTpALzjmI
This does look like a method that'll get the job done in most situations without using extra equipment. Quick and easy for boats without a sugar scoop.

Thanks

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Old 22-04-2019, 17:39   #37
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Re: MOB Recovery Technique

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Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
Dockhead,

I don't mean to be the fly in the ointment, but how does anyone "Practice, practice, practice" if you require a full crew and rescue swimmer to do it?

Can you help us come up with a way for a single person onboard to bring someone back aboard, since most of us lack a fully trained crew and usually sail with just one partner.
The approach my wife and believe we could use entails a Lifesling and free halyard (spinnaker). The assumption is that the MOB is conscious and can assist.

1st, maneuver the boat to bring the lifesling within reach of the MOB

2nd, pull the MOB to the vessel, midships, and tie off the Lifesling line as snug as possible before fetching a halyard.

3rd, Attach the halyard shackle to the ready loop on the lifesling line and begin hoisting the MOB with the halyard. Loosen the tied off Lifesling line.

4th, Continue hoisting the MOB until they swing inboard over the lifelines or are able to swing a leg over the lifeline.

Note: there is a knotted loop already in the Lifesling line which will be within reach of the person on deck if the MOB is alongside. This is where the halyard attaches.

Advantages: This is drop dead simple and quick to perform.
Disadvantages: The MOB must be able to help themselves and prevent themselves from falling out of the Lifesling.

The MOB will be free to slam around against the hull while lifting and against the rig of other structures after clearing the lifelines.

We use much the same approach when lifting the dingy, with motor, and we have experience with moving a heavy object by halyard out of the water in a seaway.

This approach will not be helpful if the MOB is unconscious or injured.
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Old 22-04-2019, 19:15   #38
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Re: MOB Recovery Technique

I think many man overboard procedures are overly complicated. I teach a method that uses a modified heave-to. Modified in the sense that one or two practice heave-to's tells you where the boat comes to a stop, or near stop, relative to the MOB. With that in mind, one makes an initial maneuver that accounts for this "offset", as I call it. For instance, on most boats, when beating, one needs to bear away for a number of seconds that is appropriate for the particular boat, then quickly come back up through the wind into a heave-to. The boat then slows to a stop, or near stop, and drifts right to the victim. In most of my classes, at least one person actually does jump overboard, sometimes everyone takes their turn, and we glide right up to them. The advantage is that the boat then stays put, or moves slowly, there are no jib sheets thrashing, no sail handling is necessary and the boat takes care of itself. This is crucial for a doublehanded situation. Personally, even if I were the only person on board, I would not hesitate to go into the water, tied to the boat, knowing that it wasn't going to take off. That's part of the reason for heaving-to. The additional benefit is that, in a boat that safely carries a dinghy (on my cat this is a given), I would consider lowering it and picking up the victim in the dinghy. At the very least, it keeps the victim from getting away from the boat and it gets the MOB out of the water, which is very important. With the right set up, which I have, the dinghy can even be raised with the victim on board. Of course, there are weather conditions that would make this hard to impossible, and smaller boats wouldn't have such a set up. But Kenomac's Oyster probably does, as do many cats. But the whole key is heaving to, so that the boat takes care of itself, and understanding the very simple maneuver that can be done (on any point of sail) to bring you right back to the victim. On most boats, I can do this more quickly than by motoring, and, if motoring, the boat won't sit still if that's how you get to the victim. Hove to, it will. I remember one time when I was motorsailing, with main up, and someone actually DID go overboard. Without a jib up, but with the main up, it was impossible to hold the boat in the right position with the motor. So we just moved away from the victim and unfurled the jib, hove to, and the rest was very easy.
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Old 22-04-2019, 19:18   #39
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Re: MOB Recovery Technique

By the way, a monohull that is hove-to will also heel to leeward, sometimes substantially, and that can eliminate a good bit of the freeboard, particularly amidships.
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Old 22-04-2019, 20:13   #40
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Re: MOB Recovery Technique

Par buckle?

Used this regularly on ribs. Not tried it on a sailboat yet.
Parbuckle net made of webbing secured to vessels side. Aluminum bar along outboard side of webbing, with line secured to each end of bar. Eye and line in middle.
Sinks down under casualty. Bring casualty alongside. Webbing under casualty.
Pull up on line rolls casualty out of water over ribs side into boat.
Even a relatively small person can pull a relatively large person out of water.

Sailboat with higher side will need a wider Webbing net.attach eye to haliard to raise.

Unfortunately there are no comercialy avalable webbing nets of suitably sise.
We get ours custom made by an uphlosrty shop.
I am thinking of ordering a bigger one for my sailboat.
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Old 22-04-2019, 20:23   #41
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Re: MOB Recovery Technique

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Originally Posted by contrail View Post
I think many man overboard procedures are overly complicated. I teach a method that uses a modified heave-to. Modified in the sense that one or two practice heave-to's tells you where the boat comes to a stop, or near stop, relative to the MOB. With that in mind, one makes an initial maneuver that accounts for this "offset", as I call it. For instance, on most boats, when beating, one needs to bear away for a number of seconds that is appropriate for the particular boat, then quickly come back up through the wind into a heave-to. The boat then slows to a stop, or near stop, and drifts right to the victim. In most of my classes, at least one person actually does jump overboard, sometimes everyone takes their turn, and we glide right up to them. The advantage is that the boat then stays put, or moves slowly, there are no jib sheets thrashing, no sail handling is necessary and the boat takes care of itself. This is crucial for a doublehanded situation. Personally, even if I were the only person on board, I would not hesitate to go into the water, tied to the boat, knowing that it wasn't going to take off. That's part of the reason for heaving-to. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

After reading all the "How To" things back in the 80s, I tried them all, then discovered this myself quite by accident. The bold is really important.


Got quite few hats back that way.


No people were ever required to be rescued, thank goodness.
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Old 23-04-2019, 00:17   #42
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Re: MOB Recovery Technique

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Originally Posted by contrail View Post
I think many man overboard procedures are overly complicated. I teach a method that uses a modified heave-to. Modified in the sense that one or two practice heave-to's tells you where the boat comes to a stop, or near stop, relative to the MOB. With that in mind, one makes an initial maneuver that accounts for this "offset", as I call it. For instance, on most boats, when beating, one needs to bear away for a number of seconds that is appropriate for the particular boat, then quickly come back up through the wind into a heave-to. The boat then slows to a stop, or near stop, and drifts right to the victim. In most of my classes, at least one person actually does jump overboard, sometimes everyone takes their turn, and we glide right up to them. The advantage is that the boat then stays put, or moves slowly, there are no jib sheets thrashing, no sail handling is necessary and the boat takes care of itself. This is crucial for a doublehanded situation. Personally, even if I were the only person on board, I would not hesitate to go into the water, tied to the boat, knowing that it wasn't going to take off. That's part of the reason for heaving-to. The additional benefit is that, in a boat that safely carries a dinghy (on my cat this is a given), I would consider lowering it and picking up the victim in the dinghy. At the very least, it keeps the victim from getting away from the boat and it gets the MOB out of the water, which is very important. With the right set up, which I have, the dinghy can even be raised with the victim on board. Of course, there are weather conditions that would make this hard to impossible, and smaller boats wouldn't have such a set up. But Kenomac's Oyster probably does, as do many cats. But the whole key is heaving to, so that the boat takes care of itself, and understanding the very simple maneuver that can be done (on any point of sail) to bring you right back to the victim. On most boats, I can do this more quickly than by motoring, and, if motoring, the boat won't sit still if that's how you get to the victim. Hove to, it will. I remember one time when I was motorsailing, with main up, and someone actually DID go overboard. Without a jib up, but with the main up, it was impossible to hold the boat in the right position with the motor. So we just moved away from the victim and unfurled the jib, hove to, and the rest was very easy.


heaving to makes so much sense. the situation definitely becomes a whole lot less stressful when the sails are not going bonkers, when the boat is sitting "comfortably" in the water, when one can focus getting the MOB back into the boat

one could then either use

the boom as Dockhead does -- this solution really makes sense in rough conditions as the boom allows for depositing the mob in the cockpit without being thrashed about.

the lifesling as Kenomac and Thinwater (and others) do

or the dingy, depending if the boat is set up for it, as yours is

or the technique shown in the video using a loop and the winch to hoist the MOB (which is what i learned)

or as you have suggested -- getting into the water while tied to the boat.

most may say that it is not a good idea to leave the boat. However being able to do so is a HUGE PLUS if the MOB is unconscious or too cold to be able to help out. and you are right, with the boat hove to, this option becomes mostly safe.

i also appreciate the idea (above or in another mob thread?) of the homemade webbing: a net with a bar on each length, lashed onto the side of the boat. unlike the lifesling (which has one function, right?), this webbing can be used in different situations:

for the one who just got into the water to attach/retrieve the mob (so used as a ladder to get back into the boat)
and then for the mob who is incapacitated (used for hoisting)
for the able mob who can climb
for the solo sailor (as an option to the ladder, as most ladders are on the back of the boat where things can get rough).

being multi-purpose, useful for when the mob is ok OR is incapacitated is a real plus. i think that this idea deserves more attention.


these threads on MOB have been great!




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Old 23-04-2019, 07:52   #43
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Re: MOB Recovery Technique

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Par buckle?

Used this regularly on ribs. Not tried it on a sailboat yet.
Parbuckle net made of webbing secured to vessels side. Aluminum bar along outboard side of webbing, with line secured to each end of bar. Eye and line in middle.
Sinks down under casualty. Bring casualty alongside. Webbing under casualty.
Pull up on line rolls casualty out of water over ribs side into boat.
Even a relatively small person can pull a relatively large person out of water.

Sailboat with higher side will need a wider Webbing net.attach eye to haliard to raise.

Unfortunately there are no comercialy avalable webbing nets of suitably sise.
We get ours custom made by an uphlosrty shop.
I am thinking of ordering a bigger one for my sailboat.
I just ordered a "MOB Parbuckle Tarp" from my sailmaker. It will be a triangular poly/canvas tarp 6' on a side with webbing along the edges and SS rings at each corner. This is the right length to attach two corners to stanchion base supports on each side of our lifeline gate. The third corner gets passed around the victim and has a line attached that we'll run to one of the cabintop winches- which is pretty much in line with our lifeline gate. This will pull whatever is in the tarp up and easily over the toerail and onto the boat. Not having to deal with halyards makes the operation simpler. Using the winch directly guarantees sufficient power. The sailmaker suggested drain holes in the tarp, but we are waiting to try it out to see if they are necessary. When not being used for MOB's, we expect this tarp can serve as a possible sunshade and emergency crash/frothering mat. Gambell & Hunter is also putting velcro tabs along one edge so we can rig it as a steadying sail to keep us from yawing around at anchor. We hope not to have to use it for a victim, but we think it will be good to have.
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Old 23-04-2019, 08:08   #44
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Re: MOB Recovery Technique

If the person in the water is incapacitated and you are a couple, things are grim. Assuming the weather is at least a little wild, the problem is not the hoisting, it is getting them attached, or basically, making contact. If they can't attach a carabiner to a harness or worm into a Lifesling (which ain't easy with an inflated PFD in waves, without practice--just try it), it strikes me as grim. You really can't swim in an inflatable PFD.


This, to me, is the critical piece. Something floating, yet linked to the boat, like a Lifesling, seem crucial. But is it enough?


I like this one.


Although it states that a non-sailor can do this, I'm not really buying that. She seems pretty organized to me. And though a little breezy, there are no waves.
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Old 23-04-2019, 10:46   #45
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Re: MOB Recovery Technique

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If the person in the water is incapacitated and you are a couple, things are grim. Assuming the weather is at least a little wild, the problem is not the hoisting, it is getting them attached, or basically, making contact. If they can't attach a carabiner to a harness or worm into a Lifesling (which ain't easy with an inflated PFD in waves, without practice--just try it), it strikes me as grim. You really can't swim in an inflatable PFD.


This, to me, is the critical piece. Something floating, yet linked to the boat, like a Lifesling, seem crucial. But is it enough?. . .

You are right, in my opinion, about the grimness of this situation, and about getting them attached as being the main challenge. As I said in a previous post -- I think if you are a couple, the weather is boisterous, the water is cold, and someone is overboard -- I just don't see any easy way to save the other person.



Have you ever been lifted out in a Lifesling? I suggest trying it. I do live people in the water practice every year, including a few lifts with a Lifesling. A debilitated person can't use a Lifesling -- you need to hold on with some force, and besides that, you need to get yourself into it.


I think a parbuckle or Galerider is probably your best chance in this situation; POSSIBLY if you can hang over the side and clip on to a harness. If you can launch a dinghy that would be a good way to do it, but that is not going to be possible single handed in rough weather. Even if you can get it into the water without breaking something, how will you get into it?
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