Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
  This discussion is proudly sponsored by:
Please support our sponsors and let them know you heard about their products on Cruisers Forums. Advertise Here
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 08-04-2019, 01:00   #16
Registered User
 
wolfgal's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2015
Boat: i'll know her when i see her
Posts: 372
Images: 1
Re: MOB Recovery Technique

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
Eureka! I think I’ve found it!

Revised Plan


I woke up from a sound sleep with this plan that uses only rigging that’s already in place, doesn’t require special equipment like the snatch block and can be done by one person!

First, this assumes rigging is in place as it is on our Oyster 53, Oyster 62 or our previous Hunter 450, but this can be revised to accomodate any boat of any size... even our O’Day 20 from the 1980’s.

1. Have an extra halyard in place, we use our stern passerelle halyard which is easy to grab and run forward with it in hand.

2. Jack lines in place along the port and starboard decks (we also have them running more inboard/centerline).

3. Fender step in place at the boarding break in the lifelines near the widest part of the beam. We always have it in place and deployed for boarding the dinghy on a daily basis. It’s position is 18 inches below the rail in order to step up from the RIB.

Procedure

1. First recover the MOB using standard LifeSling method and bring MOB along side the boat.

2. Wearing a safety harness and life vest or something similar to what I purchased earlier today like the Spinlock Deckvest Vito which will be tethered to the Jacklines by a six foot tether with caribiners at each end, I run to the stern of the boat and disengage the passerelle halyard which already has a medium size caribiner in place. The length I need will already be approximately correct, or I’ll mark the correct setting on the line and secure the halyard at the base of the mast and clip the halyard to my lifevest/harness. This should only take 30-40 seconds.

3. Clip on a second tether with two caribiners to the halyard shackle so it’s separate from the connection to me. 10 seconds

4. Go to the boarding fender and step down while holding onto the halyard and lower myself back to a 90 degree angle to the boat with the boarding fender securing my feet to the boat. The halyard will be supporting my weight like a rock climber repelling and my tether securing me to the boat, which should now be stretched taught. I should now find myself securely held in place with both hands free to attach the loose caribiner on the end of the extra tether dangling below me to the MOB. I should be approximately 18 inches to 24 inches above the water line at this point.

5. After I secure the MOB using the extra tether caribiner, I simply bend my knees and bend forward at the waist, release myself from the halyard, grab onto the toe rail and stand up, all the while secured with my own tether. This procedure doesn’t require me to lift the MOB using my muscles, since the halyard will now be supporting their weight and not mine.

6. Step up onto the deck, then haul up the MOB using the mast winch at the base of the passerelle halyard.

7. MOB is back on board

8. I can also add the option to secure the MOB to the boarding ladder/dock fender via a short double caribiner line if necessary which would hold their head above the water and hold them against the side of the boat during retrieval.

What do you think?
Ken,

it makes so much sense to put to use what is already in place an available. this can save valuable time.

i think... i think... i see what you are doing (seriously, we should make practice videos! it would help so much).

the part when your hands are free is unclear for me:
your body is facing upwards as you lean out over the sea, and you're twisting your upper body over toward the sea to tether in the MOB?


thanks!


wolfgal
__________________

__________________
“Though we travel the world over to find the beautiful, we must carry it with us, or we find it not.” Ralph Waldo Emerson
wolfgal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2019, 01:37   #17
Registered User
 
Kenomac's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Pangaea
Posts: 10,453
Re: MOB Recovery Technique

Wolfgal,

I would be able to turn sideways to the water and reach down to attach the extra tether to the MOB that’s connected to the halyard. My feet won’t be held in place, but rather positioned inside the step and rope holding up the fender and held in place to prevent slipping down the side of the hull, so I should be able to turn sideways.

I won’t be in Italy and underway until May 20th, so we’ll plan on practicing MOB procedures and possibly making a video at that time, when I have two competent friends aboard for the sail down to Montenegro. We’ll be in a clear water anchorage to scrub the bottom around May 22, so that would be a good time to experiment.

Ken
__________________

Kenomac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2019, 01:45   #18
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cowes (Winter), Helsinki (Summer); Cruising the Baltic Sea this year!
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 24,335
Re: MOB Recovery Technique

This is a great thread; kudos to Kenomac for starting it. This is a hell of a problem he is trying to solve -- how to get a debilitated victim on board, if you were sailing double handed and you are the last person on board. Whew! Hope none of us ever experiences something like that.




This is the kind of scenario that is really crucially important to think through carefully, before it actually occurs. If you haven't done that, and you get into this situation, you will be paralyzed while the victim dies because you can't figure out what to do.


I am skeptical myself about trying to hang out against the outside of the hull, in rough weather, with the boat rolling and waves crashing. It's very good to have a solution for swinging against the hull, but that's not the only issue. Just look at the video posted above and imagine being on the outside of the hull, even if you're not swinging.


The other issue is that the boat is moving one way, perhaps violently, while the victim is moving differently, because he is moving with the sea, and not with the boat. How are you going to get him attached? You'll be getting dunked on every roll and won't be able to hold onto him. Rolling motion will be suddenly much worse, when you stop to pick up the victim. And with no one at the helm, you will likely drift around beam to the waves. This is kind of a nightmare scenario, actually.



The classical solution to the problem, used on boats with more than two people on board, is this:


1. Put a person in the water to clip on the victim. And not just clip on -- first of all, you shouldn't use the tether attachment point, for lifting. This is really important. Good life jackets have separate lifting straps, but you may have to fiddle around to get them out. Only by being in the water with the victim, will you not be moving violently in relationship to the victim, and have any chance of doing any fine manipulation, I believe. Note also that if the victim is debilitated, it may be very dangerous to lift him vertically, so you might also need to get a strop under his knees.



This is not a solution to Kenomac's problem, which presumes two people on board. You can't go into the water in rough weather if you are the last person on board.



2. Instead of holding yourself against the side of the boat, get yourself (and the victim) away from the side of the boat. Note the video someone posted above -- the boom has been swung out and is being held by a preventer.





An alternative to all of this, which some people use, and which seems very sensible to me, is to scoop the victim out with a Galerider or something like that. This seems better to me, and might avoid having to put someone into the water -- so might be feasible for a double handed boat.



Yet another alternative is a parbuckle, which some people swear by, and here you can definitely avoid using a rescue swimmer. I have never much liked the idea of parbuckling in rough weather because of rolling and crushing the victim as he comes up, but based on my limited knowledge I think this is what I would try first, if I lost someone overboard, and I was the last person on board.
__________________
"Parce que je suis heureux en mer, et peut-ętre pour sauver mon ame. . . "
Dockhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2019, 01:59   #19
Registered User
 
Kenomac's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Pangaea
Posts: 10,453
Re: MOB Recovery Technique

Dockhead,

Sometimes we can only do just so much... unfortunately. The trouble with lifting someone up horizontally to try and prevent cold shock, is that you can easily break their neck if they bump into the hull, so I think bringing the MOB directly along side the boat would be preferable, where there’s less chance of them incurring blunt force trauma.

Placing the boat hove to with the MOB along side the beam should solve the beam to the waves issue.
Kenomac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2019, 02:06   #20
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cowes (Winter), Helsinki (Summer); Cruising the Baltic Sea this year!
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 24,335
Re: MOB Recovery Technique

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
Dockhead,

Sometimes we can only do just so much... unfortunately. The trouble with lifting someone up horizontally to try and prevent cold shock, is that you can easily break their neck if they bump into the hull, so I think bringing the MOB directly along side the boat would be preferable, where there’s less chance of them incurring blunt force trauma.

Placing the boat hove to with the MOB along side the beam should solve the beam to the waves issue.

Yes, being hove to will help a lot -- if you can manage to place the boat just so in relation to the victim.


Yes -- sometimes we can only do just so much. That is definitely true.


I think I would have a Galerider on board, if I were sailing a lot double handed in rough weather.
__________________
"Parce que je suis heureux en mer, et peut-ętre pour sauver mon ame. . . "
Dockhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2019, 02:09   #21
Registered User
 
Kenomac's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Pangaea
Posts: 10,453
Re: MOB Recovery Technique

Our practice session should be rather interesting, since one of the guinea pigs weighs 280 pounds.
Kenomac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2019, 02:33   #22
Registered User
 
wolfgal's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2015
Boat: i'll know her when i see her
Posts: 372
Images: 1
Re: MOB Recovery Technique

thanks Ken, i see it more clearly. in more calm conditions (when, as you have noted, mob's seem to happen unexpectedly), i can see how this could work.

once out there, your weight would be held by the halyard. your feet would push into the step, yet would you benefit from being tethered by two points along the deck level, placing you at the centre of a triangle?

dockhead has a very good point with the rough seas scenario...

i'm looking forward to tests and trials, further ideas and videos and truly appreciate how folks are re-thinking testing different solutions and sharing here. sometimes just getting the ideas out there triggers someone else to be able to tweek it, build upon it. (and a special thanks to everyone for not having laughed at my out-there ideas, especially the bubblewrap one in the other thread!)

when Dockhead mentioned the Galerider for use in rough seas, i imagined a semi-buoyant scoop-hoop built into a webbed cone that, after being lowered off of the boom (prevented out), drags vertically (half the hoop above and half the hoop below the water), half-submerged...

as it is essentially a floating device, it would move with the MOB in rough seas.

of course if the MOB is not conscious, the scooping up of him/her would rely on the positioning of the boat and how the scoop-hoop could be let out and drawn in by the recovery person on board

could we re-think the horseshoe... making it float vertically in the water and deploy a webbing that could scoop the victim?

or could we create a separate scoop-hoop device that could double up as something to drag so to collect plastic floating and/or wash clothing and/or keeping the beer cold...

if it is something that is used in many different ways, then it seems that it would become a very familiar object, easy to think of and deploy when the captain goes over.
__________________
“Though we travel the world over to find the beautiful, we must carry it with us, or we find it not.” Ralph Waldo Emerson
wolfgal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2019, 02:38   #23
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cowes (Winter), Helsinki (Summer); Cruising the Baltic Sea this year!
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 24,335
Re: MOB Recovery Technique

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
Our practice session should be rather interesting, since one of the guinea pigs weighs 280 pounds.

That will be a great test!!
__________________
"Parce que je suis heureux en mer, et peut-ętre pour sauver mon ame. . . "
Dockhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2019, 02:44   #24
Registered User
 
Sojourner's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: On the boat!
Boat: SY Wake: 53' Amel Super Maramu
Posts: 526
Re: MOB Recovery Technique

Just a thought.... an acquaintance of mine in a boat beside me bought a 500 euro MOB sling called the Catch and Lift (https://www.svb24.com/en/catch-and-l...ue-system.html). Can you please NOT buy one? It's the worst MOB idea I've ever seen, and I spent a lot of time thinking about it.

Basic idea is an attachment for a pulley on a spreader shroud amidships. Line has a horseshoe lifting float on one end, and a parachute on the other. When MOB happens, you clip on the pulley, throw float, circle the boat to "catch" the MOB, then throw the parachute tied to the other end of same line at EXACTLY 1 knot speed. The water flow will hoist the MOB by itself! Ta daaaaaaah!! Ingenious!!



a) Still won't work on unconscious MOB
b) Imagine controlling speed at 1 knot in any weather. More than 1 knot and the MOB will be flung into the sky, or at least up against that pulley, or ripped from around the MOB. Bringing me to point (c)
c) If it is ripped from the MOB, or MOB just loses it....what then? Collect what is a sea anchor in anything but flat calm is gonna be a bit hard to do while doing anything else, like keeping MOB in sight, etc. And then spin around and try again?
d) Oh, and who here has been running under bare poles in any weather and still going a solid 5 knots? That MOB sling should be called an MOB trebuchet.



The attachment point for a clipped on pulley on a shroud is a good idea. But run the line to your main winch so you can do it at any speed and drop it back instantly to try again if the MOB misses. Or hoist with your outboard davit. Or your davit-davit on the stern. Or your spinnaker halyard. Or anything but this ridiculous, overpriced death trap

Still have no solutions but not falling over for unconscious MOB for a couple sailing together. That's a pickle I do not ever want to be in, because I'll be either dead or a widow. Thankfully there are three of us, and if it was me in the water even that would be a $h!tshow I don't want to be a party to thanks
__________________
3 cats, 3 queers, endless wake, endless love!
https://www.facebook.com/anendlesswake/
https://anendlesswake.com/
Sojourner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2019, 03:02   #25
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cowes (Winter), Helsinki (Summer); Cruising the Baltic Sea this year!
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 24,335
Re: MOB Recovery Technique

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sojourner View Post
Just a thought.... an acquaintance of mine in a boat beside me bought a 500 euro MOB sling called the Catch and Lift (https://www.svb24.com/en/catch-and-l...ue-system.html). Can you please NOT buy one? It's the worst MOB idea I've ever seen, and I spent a lot of time thinking about it.

Basic idea is an attachment for a pulley on a spreader amidships. Line has a horseshoe lifting float on one end, and a parachute on the other. When MOB happens, you clip on the pulley, throw float, circle the boat to "catch" the MOB, then throw the parachute tied to the other end of same line at EXACTLY 1 knot speed. The water flow will hoist the MOB by itself! Ta daaaaaaah!! Ingenious!!



a) Still won't work on unconscious MOB
b) Imagine controlling speed at 1 knot in any weather. More than 1 knot and the MOB will be flung into the sky, or at least up against that pulley, or ripped from around the MOB. Bringing me to point (c)
c) If it is ripped from the MOB, or MOB just loses it....what then? Collect what is a sea anchor in anything but flat calm is gonna be a bit hard to do while doing anything else, like keeping MOB in sight, etc. And then spin around and try again?
d) Oh, and who here has been running under bare poles in any weather and still going a solid 5 knots? That MOB sling should be called an MOB trebuchet.



The attachment point for a clipped on pulley on a shroud is a good idea. But run the line to your main winch so you can do it at any speed and drop it back instantly to try again if the MOB misses. Or hoist with your outboard davit. Or your davit-davit on the stern. Or your spinnaker halyard. Or anything but this ridiculous, overpriced death trap

. . .

From my armchair, I came to the same conclusions. Seems like an absolutely ridiculous idea, and a solution to a problem which none of us has -- that is, how do you hoist an MOB on board if you have neither winch nor block and tackle on board?
__________________
"Parce que je suis heureux en mer, et peut-ętre pour sauver mon ame. . . "
Dockhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2019, 05:11   #26
Registered User
 
Kenomac's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Pangaea
Posts: 10,453
Re: MOB Recovery Technique

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
From my armchair, I came to the same conclusions. Seems like an absolutely ridiculous idea, and a solution to a problem which none of us has -- that is, how do you hoist an MOB on board if you have neither winch nor block and tackle on board?
The “Catch and Lift”

Yikes! It looks like something Wile E. Coyote would use to try and catch the Roadrunner. Beep! Beep!

The shroud wasn’t meant to have that amount of horizotal force applied to it; I can visualize the entire rig coming down in foul weather.
Kenomac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2019, 08:01   #27
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: SF Bay Area
Boat: Other people's boats
Posts: 59
Re: MOB Recovery Technique

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
And not just clip on -- first of all, you shouldn't use the tether attachment point, for lifting. This is really important. Good life jackets have separate lifting straps, but you may have to fiddle around to get them out.
I'm curious how this matters. From what I've been able to see of the lifting strops, I don't see how they alter the lifting mechanics compared to using the tether attachment points.

What I think the strops do provide is an accessible attachment point, since as mentioned in other threads gaining access to the tether points may be quite difficult, particularly with an inflated PFD. With an even larger loop, you could use a boathook to snag it and clip on without having to go over.
requiem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2019, 08:49   #28
Writing Full-Time Since 2014
 
thinwater's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Deale, MD
Boat: PDQ Altair, 32/34
Posts: 6,224
Re: MOB Recovery Technique

Just a safety reminder. If there is ANY question as to whether the MOB has crotch straps, scream at them to keep their elbows down! They won't slide out. This is also true if you are grabbing a foam PFD or even their rain gear.



__________________
Gear Testing--Engineering--Sailing
http://sail-delmarva.blogspot.com/
thinwater is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2019, 10:56   #29
Registered User
 
Kenomac's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Pangaea
Posts: 10,453
Re: MOB Recovery Technique

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
That will be a great test!!
Can you please review the rescue technique you ended up using on your boat for your practice rescues. Did you use block and tackle with an additional person going into the water? How well did your Ocean Rodeo drysuits work out?
Kenomac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2019, 11:36   #30
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cowes (Winter), Helsinki (Summer); Cruising the Baltic Sea this year!
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 24,335
Re: MOB Recovery Technique

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
Can you please review the rescue technique you ended up using on your boat for your practice rescues. Did you use block and tackle with an additional person going into the water? How well did your Ocean Rodeo drysuits work out?

Yes, we put a rescue swimmer into the water. We had one person on board who was a tremendously strong swimmer with training, and she was the designated rescue swimmer (although obviously if she had been unavailable, another one of us would have gone in, and we all practiced).


The rescue swimmer wore a harness with no PFD, drysuit, mask, snorkel, and fins, and was tied to the boat with a long rope.



This person was so strong that she was able to pull herself back on board (!) with no assistance; the rest of us got lifted out like the victim.


What we practiced was one person shouting and pointing, another steering, two others getting the boom out and secured with a preventer. We had a full crew; obviously the procedure will be different short handed. With the person nearby in the lee of the boat, the rescue swimmer when in, and got the casualty secure. We then lifted the person out using a block and tackle with the line led to an electric winch.


What we learned:


* The tether attachment point doesn't balance you well -- you tend to fall through and you WILL fall through if you can't grab on with your arms. The lifting straps are better.


* The crotch straps will break if you get lifted by them.



* You need a strap behind the casualty's knees to pull the casualty up safely without the casualty holding on. We used a climbing harness strap, but a loop of rope would be ok too I think.



* This lifting system works well, and keeps (on our boat anyway) the casualty pretty far away from the side of the boat, which takes care of the risk of bashing the casualty against the side. On our boat, the boom is high enough to comfortably swing the casualty over the guardwires.



* We were not quite confident that all this would work well with a truly debilitated casualty. Parbuckle was the backup plan; a GaleRider would be better (and might even eliminate the rescue swimmer).



* The drysuits are fantastic -- not only survivable, but actually comfortable in the icy water of North Iceland. Just remarkably so. But beware cold shock if you get your head in -- we wore scuba hoods, gloves and booties.


* It's amazing how easy it is to get flustered and mess it up, even in a mere exercise, and even in benign weather. Practice, practice, practice, practice!
__________________

__________________
"Parce que je suis heureux en mer, et peut-ętre pour sauver mon ame. . . "
Dockhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
mob

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Opencpn Dokuwiki Migration -MOB- Help Needed!!! MOB rgleason OpenCPN 87 20-12-2016 10:12
For Sale: McMurdo Guardian MOB System TWO MOB watches and Receiver petedd Classifieds Archive 1 26-09-2015 16:31
Recovery MOB Lifesling arjand Health, Safety & Related Gear 16 05-05-2012 20:07
Roll Over and MOB.........the recovery! David_Old_Jersey Challenges 16 18-08-2008 17:27
Quick Recovery - MOB Limpet Seamanship & Boat Handling 8 27-06-2007 10:52



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 21:43.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.