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Navicula · 06-12-2017, 18:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Polux

The old skipper just went overboard and they were just beginning with more 4 years ahead. He would finish is circumnavigation with 78 years.

Maybe there are 78 years guys that remain fit enough to sail his 44ft alone across Oceans (the wife cannot sail the boat) but as a rule I would say that is not the case for the vast majority.

Off course, you can dream with that, or even take stupid risks to you and the other doing that but I don't think it is reasonable.

I dont see anything stupid ....and god bless to all the old skippers

**Jim Cate** · 06-12-2017, 18:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Polux

I did not sid that it was irresponsible I asked if it was reasonable to do that between 74 and 78 years of age knowing that his wife did not know how to sail.

OK, substitute "unreasonable" for "irresponsible". I come to the same conclusion: it was NOT unreasonable. The apparent fact that he could not get insurance for downhill ski racing, etc, does not dictate unreason in his and her decision. Unwise to not educate her, yep, to not have adequate tethering or to not use it, yep, unwise. But to embark on the journney... IMO well within the bounds of reason.

You may disagree. When you reach his age, if you do, your opinion may change.

Jim

DumnMad · 06-12-2017, 21:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

OK, substitute "unreasonable" for "irresponsible". I come to the same conclusion: it was NOT unreasonable. The apparent fact that he could not get insurance for downhill ski racing, etc, does not dictate unreason in his and her decision. Unwise to not educate her, yep, to not have adequate tethering or to not use it, yep, unwise. But to embark on the journney... IMO well within the bounds of reason.

You may disagree. When you reach his age, if you do, your opinion may change.

Jim

Bang on Jim.

Half-drunk liveaboards going nowhere are much more liable to fall off the boat than wise old ocean going survivers. Also young newbies are much more likely to have GPS related on-the-rock disasters than wise old dogs who wouldn't go into an unfamiliar anchorage wthout good visibility.
Polux is on another planet as far as cruisers are concerned.

picklesandjesse · 07-12-2017, 01:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by DumnMad

Bang on Jim.

Half-drunk liveaboards going nowhere are much more liable to fall off the boat than wise old ocean going survivers. Also young newbies are much more likely to have GPS related on-the-rock disasters than wise old dogs who wouldn't go into an unfamiliar anchorage wthout good visibility. ..
Polux is on another planet as far as cruisers are concerned.

Maybe it's not quite like that. Could all be friends if someday caught in an anchorage together and weather bound, find some common ground.We are just human and have no understanding how this planet really works. Polux might be quite fun.

DumnMad · 07-12-2017, 02:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by picklesandjesse

Maybe it's not quite like that. Could all be friends if someday caught in an anchorage together and weather bound, find some common ground.We are just human and have no understanding how this planet really works. Polux might be quite fun.

Yeah, I think I agree. The boat pics he posts are foreign to me but interesting never-the-less, and, he clearly loves boats.
Thanks Polux

Now, what were we fighting about??

Polux · 07-12-2017, 07:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by DumnMad

Yeah, I think I agree. The boat pics he posts are foreign to me but interesting never-the-less, and, he clearly loves boats.
Thanks Polux

Now, what were we fighting about??

Yes that's right I love a good discussion

makes the brain work and different views about a subject are always a good thing that contributes to have wider views on a subject.

For all that thought that I was against the liberty of someone to do anything he wants to do let me say that you got me wrong. I am in favor of euthanasia and that's the biggest liberty anyone can have.

I don't see anything wrong with someone wanted do end their days sailing even if that may create the conditions to shorten his live length for lack of regular or urgent medical care. It's a personal choice that I respect.

And that's were it comes the diference between irresponsible and reasonable. Reasonable is a question of opinion, what is for one is not for others.

Irresponsibility is not since it is related in a social way. Someone can only be irresponsible regarding others since irresponsibility towards himself is a question of personal judgement and then we would fall on what one finds reasonable or not.

On all this subject the only social irresponsibility that someone incurs when sailing to the horizon independently of the odds to be succeeded (old age, bad health, unseaworthy boat or inadequate boat) regards the superior risk of needing a rescue or being object of a research. Off course that problem would disappear if a insurance covering that was made. Unfortunately the risks are so big that no insurance company does that for guys over 65.

This brings us to another related subject, the costs of pleasure sailing rescues and research being sported (in a huge way) by the ones that don't sail and that have not any interest in sailing.

Sea rescue and research makes sense to be paid by the general tax payers when regards to economic professional activities like fishing or transport, it makes no sense at all in what regards pleasure sailing where one is at risk only because he chose to be there not because he had a need too.

Some similitude there with other sport and pleasure activities that involve some risk and where in many countries a mandatory insurance is needed.

Some will say that some of those rescue missions are made by volunteers by that regards only coastal rescues and never very expensive aerial searches or ocean rescues.

Due to the increase of expensive ocean rescues (the coast guard numbers regards all rescues and don't give any information regarding the ones that regards pleasure boats in coastal or ocean conditions) it will be only a question of time till a mandatory rescue and research insurance to be demanded to those that sail offshore.

That of course will not prevent nobody of sailing when and to where they want but will make the sailing offshore community socially responsibly for the costs that incur (in a global way) from the risks inherent to such an activity.

Has we have seen in what regards insurance companies and those insurances the risks are not the same and they increase after a certain age (65) but I am quite sure that if such an insurance was mandatory and a considerable number of sailors needed such an insurance there would be insurance companies that would cover the superior risk adapting the prices to risks, conform diferences in ages in steeps over 65.

Like an old boat, an old sailor would pay more and like old boats, that many consider that are safer, what interests insurance companies is not particular cases but averages and average risk and in a statistical way old boats have more accidents than new ones, like old sailors.

I am an old sailor that still fell young but know that I have not the same agility, stamina and muscular control than I had 15 year ago (not to mention 30) and that know that 15 years from now I would be in a worse physical condition than I am now, even if I don't intend to stop sailing and cruising.

davil · 07-12-2017, 08:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Polux

For all that thought that I was against the liberty of someone to do anything he wants to do let me say that you got me wrong. I am in favor of euthanasia and that's the biggest liberty anyone can have.
.

Need to be very careful as to how you define euthanasia.
Let's see
Definition of euthanasia (Merriam-Webster)

" the act or practice of killing or permitting the death of hopelessly sick or injured individuals (such as persons or domestic animals) in a relatively painless way for reasons of mercy."
May be you are referring to "Right to die"?
With the controversial role of physician assisted suicide?
Otherwise I believe you are looking at Hitler who practiced euthanasia with the believe was purifying the German race.

Polux · 07-12-2017, 10:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by davil

Need to be very careful as to how you define euthanasia.
Let's see
Definition of euthanasia (Merriam-Webster)

" the act or practice of killing or permitting the death of hopelessly sick or injured individuals (such as persons or domestic animals) in a relatively painless way for reasons of mercy."
May be you are referring to "Right to die"?
With the controversial role of physician assisted suicide?
Otherwise I believe you are looking at Hitler who practiced euthanasia with the believe was purifying the German race.

If I am talking about Euthanasia as " the biggest liberty anyone can have" it is obvious that I am talking about assisted suicide and the liberty for one to chose his time of death, when life become too painful and hopeless.

How can that be interpreted any other way?

**newhaul** · 07-12-2017, 10:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Polux

If I am talking about Euthanasia as " the biggest liberty anyone can have" it is obvious that I am talking about assisted suicide and the liberty for one to chose his time of death, when life become too painful and hopeless.

How can that be interpreted any other way?

sailing off into the sunset seems like a great option to me with respect to checking out. No epirb no rescue no problem.

davil · 07-12-2017, 12:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by picklesandjesse

Maybe it's not quite like that. Could all be friends if someday caught in an anchorage together and weather bound, find some common ground.We are just human and have no understanding how this planet really works. Polux might be quite fun.

no
actually my preference will not to be in the same anchorage,here is a guy who has been quite nasty to the tragic situation where a human been lost his life,a wife lost her husband and has been drumming non stop his critical view of this tragedy,almost blaming the victims,now after my posting asking to clear his statement about euthanasia he responds by lashing out.
No,I really do not want to be on the same anchorage.
Good luck

bill352 · 07-12-2017, 13:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by davil

Otherwise I believe you are looking at Hitler who practiced euthanasia with the believe was purifying the German race.

Doesn't really matter what anyone else said, davil.

You Godwin'd the thread.

You lose.

**boatman61** · 07-12-2017, 13:19

Also.. its worth remembering that English and American are not the first language of quite a few members so maybe make allowances and check intended meanings before releasing the guillotine..

I believe euthanasia is the killing of the elderly and infirm medically and with consent..
Hitler practiced genocide.. big difference.

**newhaul** · 07-12-2017, 13:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by boatman61

Also.. its worth remembering that English and American are not the first language of quite a few members so maybe make allowances and check intended meanings before releasing the guillotine..

remember Americans speak English as well ( Americanized English that is)
its like the Portuguese spoken in Brazil )

davil · 07-12-2017, 13:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by bill352

Doesn't really matter what anyone else said, davil.

You Godwin'd the thread.

You lose.

Intrigued by this Godwin thing,thanks,educational!
Generalization, corollaries, Wikipedia
With respect to probability theory, Godwin's law becomes a special case of a Bernoulli trial.

Indeed, there are many corollaries to Godwin's law, some considered more canonical (by being adopted by Godwin himself)[3] than others.[1] For example, there is a tradition in many newsgroups and other Internet discussion forums that once such a comparison is made, the thread is finished and whoever mentioned Adolf Hitler has automatically lost whatever debate was in progress.[7] This principle is itself frequently referred to as Godwin's law.[8]

Godwin's law itself can be abused as a distraction, diversion or even as censorship, fallaciously miscasting an opponent's argument as hyperbole when the comparisons made by the argument are actually appropriate.[9][10] Similar criticisms of the "law" (or "at least the distorted version which purports to prohibit all comparisons to German crimes") have been made by the American lawyer, journalist, and author Glenn Greenwald.[11]