Missing yacht near Barbados..

[Polux]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Good summary, Charlie. Despite Polux's concerns, I think I'll continue to go to sea until I start to feel incompetent... I don't really care what he thinks.

So far, Ann and I have simply modified our plans and expectations to compensate for reduced ability (which we don't deny). Have not yet required rescue at sea, hope to continue that streak. And I don't really buy the insurance argument, for those companies continue to charge much higher premiums for simple offshore work than they do for coastal work, despite the obvious greater hazard density inshore... their bean counters count some strange beans!

Jim

I am not advocating that someone stop sailing or cruising just because it is getting old, has reduced ability or need medical care more frequently.

What seems obvious to me is simply what you do "I have simply modified our plans and expectations to compensate for reduced ability"

All this discussion started because I asked if it was reasonable a guy with 74 to start a 4 year circumnavigation with a wife that does not know how to sail. It continues not to seem reasonable to me.

[DotDun]

Originally Posted by Polux

I am not advocating that someone stop sailing or cruising just because it is getting old, has reduced ability or need medical care more frequently.

What seems obvious to me is simply what you do "I have simply modified our plans and expectations to compensate for reduced ability"

All this discussion started because I asked if it was reasonable a guy with 74 to start a 4 year circumnavigation with a wife that does not know how to sail. It continues not to seem reasonable to me.

No, that's not what you asked. To quote you:

Originally Posted by Polux

I hope they are well. Doing 4 year circumnavigation at the age of 74 is that reasonable?

When you asked this, you had no clue as to the abilities of his wife.

Care to comment?

[cyan]

Originally Posted by Polux

All this discussion started because I asked if it was reasonable a guy with 74 to start a 4 year circumnavigation with a wife that does not know how to sail. It continues not to seem reasonable to me.

I think this was covered, but the wildcard to me was not his age, but her ability to learn or his willingness to teach. She could have probably mastered all of the basics after only a few days, but this was apparently not the case. Sad but useful lesson to us all.

Redundancy (for both people and equipment) is often misunderstood, as probability is not always intuitive...
Having two pilots versus one on an airplane does not double the odds of survival. It is WAY better than simply double. For example, if the odds of just one pilot becoming (independently) physically incapacitated are 1 out of 100, then the odds of TWO pilots being independently incapacitated are (1/100)*(1/100) = 1 out of 10000 Thus, having two pilots is not twice as good, it is ONE HUNDRED TIMES AS GOOD.

Understanding this math, it makes tons of sense to thoroughly train everyone on a boat- even on a day sail. Having two people who can operate a boat is many times better than just one. You could apply similar math to redundant engines and rudders, but that could spark one of those polarizing mono-multi arguments.

.

[StuM]

Originally Posted by boatman61

6. HOW TO SURVIVE A HEART ATTACK WHEN ALONE? Since many people are alone when they suffer a heart attack without help, the person whose heart is beating improperly and who begins to feel faint, has only about 10 seconds left before losing consciousness.
7. However, these victims can help themselves by coughing repeatedly and very vigorously. A deep breath should be taken before each cough, and the cough must be deep and prolonged, as when producing sputum from deep inside the chest. A breath and a cough must be repeated about every two seconds without let-up until help arrives, or until the heart is felt to be beating normally again.
.

This has been debunked countless times by many medical authorities including the American Heart Foundation and the British Heart Foundation,

From Snopes:

"
Rather than risk killing yourself with cough CPR, those experiencing a heart attack should heed the advice of physicians the world over — down a couple of Aspirin as an emergency remedy. Doctors believe that during the early stages of a heart attack, Aspirin — which is known to prevent blood platelets from sticking together — can prevent a clot from getting bigger. In 1991 Dr. Michael Vance, president of the American Board of Emergency Medicine, recommended that people who think they are having a heart attack should “Call 911, then take an Aspirin.”
Oh, and it probably makes a great deal of sense to chew the Aspirin before swallowing. The sooner it is dispersed by the stomach, the sooner it gets to where it is needed. During a heart attack, waiting for the enteric coating surrounding the pill to break down naturally could be a mistake.
In 1993 The American Heart Association began recommending a 325 mg Aspirin at the onset of chest pain or other symptoms of a severe heart attack. That bit of advice is going unheeded, though; a follow-up report published in 1997 shows as many as 10,000 American lives a year could be saved if more people who think they’re having a heart attack took an aspirin at the start of chest pains.
In terms of the drama of it, swallowing an Aspirin seems quite a come-down from bravely trying to induce a perfectly timed coughing fit. Less flamboyant is better, though; Aspirin saves lives, whereas coughing might well cost them."

[kmacdonald]

Originally Posted by Polux

I am not advocating that someone stop sailing or cruising just because it is getting old, has reduced ability or need medical care more frequently.

What seems obvious to me is simply what you do "I have simply modified our plans and expectations to compensate for reduced ability"

All this discussion started because I asked if it was reasonable a guy with 74 to start a 4 year circumnavigation with a wife that does not know how to sail. It continues not to seem reasonable to me.

I agree.

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by Polux

No, there are proper insurances for that, the ones I had posted that include that, more rescue costs as well costs due to have to interrupt a voyage due to accident or health problems, medical costs and costs of repatriation.

I posted American, UK and French ones. They all have as limit to be insured 65 years of age.

My insurance is proper insurance. It has full coverage for my vessel and area of navigation. I insure to cover the risks that I don't want to cover myself. Search and rescue insurance is just not needed for a cruising boat - with old or young crew. The vast majority of rescue centers do not charge for the service, neither does a friendly pickup from a GMDSS summoned cargo ship.

[Jim Cate]

All this discussion started because I asked if it was reasonable a guy with 74 to start a 4 year circumnavigation with a wife that does not know how to sail. It continues not to seem reasonable to me.

Well, to me this sounds like emphasizing the wrong thing. The cause of his death was not his age, it was the inability of his wife to return and rescue him. The same result would have eventuated if he had been 40... or whatever age. Apparently he was either not tethered or not adequately tethered, or he would not have left the boat. Again, not age related.

So, I think you are barking up the wrong tree, Polux (American slang, in case you are not familiar with the usage). The insurance that you keep using to prove your case is not familiar to me, and it sounds like TRAVEL insurance, not boating insurance. I suspect that the folks who write such policies are not very familiar with sailors and their habits and abilities. The kind of insurance that yotties of my acquaintance buy does not have age restrictions placed on it. IIRC, I was never asked my age... rather how much experience I had in sailing.

But you are right that the key to safe elder sailing is recognizing one's limitations ... just like the same thing is true for younger sailors. I'd feel pretty safe setting out on a tradewind circumnavigation at 79... I guess I could say that I'm still doing the RTW that I started in 1986, but will likely not finish, for I've lost the desire to do so. THAT is a real effect of aging!!

Jim

[kmacdonald]

Older people tend to be less stable on their feet and that could have contributed to his falling overboard------that is if he didn't have a medical emergency that caused the mishap. I plan on sailing into the sunset but have no illusion that it will be anything but more dangerous as I get older.

[robert sailor]

Originally Posted by kmacdonald

Older people tend to be less stable on their feet and that could have contributed to his falling overboard------that is if he didn't have a medical emergency that caused the mishap. I plan on sailing into the sunset but have no illusion that it will be anything but more dangerous as I get older.

Sometimes your much safer on your hands and knees. R

[Polux]

Originally Posted by DotDun

No, that's not what you asked. To quote you:



When you asked this, you had no clue as to the abilities of his wife.

Care to comment?

It seems you had not been following the thread or read the news about the accident.

The man went overboard and his wife was not able to recover him neither continue sailing because she did not know how to sail and sent a mayday demanding a rescue.

Anybody following the case knew that his wife did not know how to sail.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

...
So, I think you are barking up the wrong tree, Polux (American slang, in case you are not familiar with the usage). The insurance that you keep using to prove your case is not familiar to me, and it sounds like TRAVEL insurance, not boating insurance. I suspect that the folks who write such policies are not very familiar with sailors and their habits and abilities. The kind of insurance that yotties of my acquaintance buy does not have age restrictions placed on it. IIRC, I was never asked my age... rather how much experience I had in sailing.
...
Jim

Yes, it is a insurance designed for sailors that do long range cruising. Many countries have providers of those insurances. No, it is not the kind of a normal travel insurance the insurance companies that propose them are the ones that insure activities with some risk, like sports, expeditions, travel in the wilderness and so on.
https://www.dogtag.com/sports-inform...vel-insurance/
Almost any activity can be covered with Adventures Travel Insurance

The French forum and site dedicated to long range cruising purpose one, as all the others, limited to 65 years of age. They are designed by sailors for sailors and cover the risks that can happen specifically on long range cruising, crossing oceans or sailing for far away lands.
Grand Large First - Garantie interruption de voyage | STW

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by Polux

Yes, it is a insurance designed for sailors that do long range cruising. Many countries have providers of those insurances. No, it is not the kind of a normal travel insurance the insurance companies that propose them are the ones that insure activities with some risk, like sports, expeditions, travel in the wilderness and so on.
https://www.dogtag.com/sports-inform...vel-insurance/
Almost any activity can be covered with Adventures Travel Insurance

The French forum and site dedicated to long range cruising purpose one, as all the others, limited to 65 years of age. They are designed by sailors for sailors and cover the risks that can happen specifically on long range cruising, crossing oceans or sailing for far away lands.
Grand Large First - Garantie interruption de voyage | STW

A look at the dogtag site shows that their emphasis is upon high risk activities, things that few folks do, and are coverage for the person, not the boat. Much emphasis on medical coverage, shipment of "mortal remains" and repatriation of medical casualties. These are big ticket expenses, reaching sums higher than the value of many cruising boats. For such coverage, perhaps there is actuarial experience that justify the 65 year cutoff. Further, the policies have rather short term application, as in less than 90 days. To me, this suggests typical travel insurance coverage for holiday activities, albeit for risky holidays, rather than insurance for long term cruising or circumnavigations... a very different risk environment.

BUT, IMO, this has little to do with the risks involved in simple sail cruising in mid latitudes and in season... the kind of things we long term cruisers tend to do. You may believe that it is inherently unsafe for older folks to do these things, and that we should not do them, or even that we should not be allowed to do them. I disagree. I have not and will not try to buy insurance that provides the sort of coverage offered by Dogtag, for I do not need it. I am responsible for myself, my wife and my boat. I do carry liability insurance against the possibility that I cause some horrendous damage to some other entity, but there are no age limits on that policy.

And once again, in the case we have been discussing, the death of the sailor was not demonstrably age related. His death was caused by falling off the boat which could be but is not shown to be age related, and by his not insisting that his wife be competent to effect a rescue of a MOB.

So, your suggestion that it is irresponsible for someone of his age to set out on a circumnavigation seems unwarranted.

Jim

PS The site for the French group would not load, so I have not commented upon their coverage.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

...
So, your suggestion that it is irresponsible for someone of his age to set out on a circumnavigation seems unwarranted.

Jim....

I did not sid that it was irresponsible I asked if it was reasonable to do that between 74 and 78 years of age knowing that his wife did not know how to sail.

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by Polux

I did not sid that it was irresponsible I asked if it was reasonable to do that between 74 and 78 years of age knowing that his wife did not know how to sail.

Reasonable with respect to exactly what...?

Presumably he knew that his wife did not know how to sail, presumably his wife knew that she did not know how to sail, presumably they both knew his age and I assume they understood the dangers of going overboard (either or both of them).

I can't see why it would be considered "unreasonable" if they were aware of the issues but I'm happy to be informed otherwise if there is a good argument.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by StuM

This has been debunked countless times by many medical authorities including the American Heart Foundation and the British Heart Foundation,

From Snopes:

"
Rather than risk killing yourself with cough CPR, those experiencing a heart attack should heed the advice of physicians the world over — down a couple of Aspirin as an emergency remedy. Doctors believe that during the early stages of a heart attack, Aspirin — which is known to prevent blood platelets from sticking together — can prevent a clot from getting bigger. In 1991 Dr. Michael Vance, president of the American Board of Emergency Medicine, recommended that people who think they are having a heart attack should “Call 911, then take an Aspirin.”
Oh, and it probably makes a great deal of sense to chew the Aspirin before swallowing. The sooner it is dispersed by the stomach, the sooner it gets to where it is needed. During a heart attack, waiting for the enteric coating surrounding the pill to break down naturally could be a mistake.
In 1993 The American Heart Association began recommending a 325 mg Aspirin at the onset of chest pain or other symptoms of a severe heart attack. That bit of advice is going unheeded, though; a follow-up report published in 1997 shows as many as 10,000 American lives a year could be saved if more people who think they’re having a heart attack took an aspirin at the start of chest pains.
In terms of the drama of it, swallowing an Aspirin seems quite a come-down from bravely trying to induce a perfectly timed coughing fit. Less flamboyant is better, though; Aspirin saves lives, whereas coughing might well cost them."

Well slap me round the head with a soggy cod for not checking with Snopes first.. but to me it seemed as logical as thumping my grandmothers chest a few times then pumping her chest till the ambulance arrived.. she survived and lived another 7yrs.
As a solo sailor if I am in the cockpit when I get a siezure you can be damn sure I'll be coughing like crazy rather than trying to make my way down the steps with the world going grey.. finding the first aid box.. opening the box of asprins or fumbling with the child proof cap and pouring some water to take the asprins..
Thats life.. you pays yer money and take your chances
Mind.. being a smoker could save my life.. coughing comes so much easier for me..