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Old 02-02-2016, 14:00   #91
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Re: Missing Cat

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Well from the story it seemed the families weren't forced to engage lawyers, but since sunsail had lawyers present they decide to as well. For my family in the same position (me lost at sea with a possible sighting of an upturned hull a year later) I personally would want them to close the chapter and move on, with the knowledge that I was prepared for the possibility of being lost at sea, took full responsibility for my own choices and probably died while doing what I loved.

Yes, actually, they were forced to use attorneys. All they wanted was to speak to Sunsail, and by using attorneys, they forced the families to do so as well.

There have been plenty of other examples of entities that might not have done anything wrong, but their behavior after the fact forced the other side to file malpractice lawsuits, for example.


An article I read stated the typical advice given to doctors when a patient dies is not to apologize to the family for fear that the family might take that as some sort of admission of medical error. The article cited an expensive study at a university hospital investigating why they were being sued so often for the death of a patient (to the tune of tens of millions per year) and the answer they got from the grieving families was, "If the doctor had shown the least bit of sympathy or made any sort of apology about the outcome, we would have felt that he/she had done the best they could. But instead they made a terse announcement about the patient not making it and walked away."

The recommendation was to show more sympathy, show that the doctor was also saddened by the outcome. This resulted in malpractice lawsuits dropping by a huge percentage, well over 50%.

A similar study was done in Japan, where the malpractice lawsuits are much less common, but they still wanted to reduce it further. The answer they arrived at was, "If you killed fewer patients, you wouldn't have to apologize so often."

Anyways, the families are grieving, angry, persistent and now focused on the seeming lack of compassion or action in terms of the missing men and vessel. Whether the company likes it or not, they're going to have to deal with them. It might have been cheaper to be more accommodating to the families early on. Once they get attorneys involved, things are going to get more expensive and a lot uglier.

Back in the day when the media was the only source of info, it was easy for a corporation to ignore families like them. Now with social media, and the lame stream media publishing social media stories without any corroboration, it's a lot easier for people to level the playing field against entities like Sunsail.
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Old 03-02-2016, 04:27   #92
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Re: Missing Cat

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Originally Posted by monte View Post
Well from the story it seemed the families weren't forced to engage lawyers, but since sunsail had lawyers present they decide to as well. For my family in the same position (me lost at sea with a possible sighting of an upturned hull a year later) I personally would want them to close the chapter and move on, with the knowledge that I was prepared for the possibility of being lost at sea, took full responsibility for my own choices and probably died while doing what I loved.
Monte, this seems to be the problem:

"WE implored the company for help and information when we realised we had not heard from our men in the days after January 18th 2015, only to be told that we were over-reacting. We were told that our men had encountered “a little bit of bad weather”. We were never told about their position in the path of Cyclone Bansi, which reached windspeeds of over 180 kms per hour.
WE reported the catamaran missing to the Maritime Rescue Co-ordinating Centre on February 11th and February 12th 2015. The company resisted this most fundamental of nautical codes – although, since then, WE have had to repeatedly request Sunsail/Tui Group not to misrepresent this fact.
....
WE are the ones who live with the knowledge that, had any or all of our men, survived the events of January 18th, they were denied the chance of rescue because a multi-billion dollar global company chose not to alert the maritime safety authorities when scheduled report-ins were missed. Authorities told us that losing contact with a vessel at a time of severe weather warrants the issuing of a situation of “uncertain distress” by maritime safety authorities, should they be made aware of the situation."

And it seems they have a valuable point that could be on the basis of the non search/rescue and the ultimate cause of death.

I am also very surprised the cat, going to a very extensive and potentially dangerous voyage has not equipped with a self launching Epirb, an equipment that is not particularly expensive. On my view Sunsail should have equipped the boat with that item but if not Sunsail, the crew should have it.

I don't think Sunsail and acted correctly: a boat stops communications on the middle of a storm and nobody cares or investigates that? It has to be the family, against the will of Sunsail, that reports to the authorities the boat is missing only 3 weeks after communications were lost?

3 weeks at the sea waiting for help with the boat drifting from its last known position with nobody doing nothing? While guys like this two mentioned on the below article are rescued 9 times in 7 months?
http://www.solovela.net/4Daction/Web...oc=si&Recuperi
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Old 21-07-2016, 06:39   #93
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Re: Missing Cat

Some more of this incident in the media in South Africa.

http://www.dailymaverick.co.za/bigge...her/index.html
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Old 21-07-2016, 09:00   #94
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Re: Missing Cat

Nice article. Still reading. Encourage others to read.
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Old 21-07-2016, 12:11   #95
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Re: Missing Cat

Query for those with trans-ocean delivery experience - where does the risk for the vessel transfer? Does the customer take delivery ex works? Or is it ddu at agreed destination?
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Old 21-07-2016, 12:51   #96
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Re: Missing Cat

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Query for those with trans-ocean delivery experience - where does the risk for the vessel transfer? Does the customer take delivery ex works? Or is it ddu at agreed destination?
In this situation, the boat comes out of the factory, is launched, mast, rigging, sails equipped and test sail undertaken by the factory. Then inspected by the client and a snag list drawn up. The snag list is completed and the client goes on a test sail and signs for the boat. A week or so after launch the boat belongs to the client. With an "on its own bottom" delivery, the crew are waiting for that final handover, the paperwork should have been undertaken and safety gear and inspection done and registration papers ready. Provision the boat and prep for delivery - wait for weather window and go! Normally the boat is at sea and on delivery within two weeks of launch.
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Old 21-07-2016, 14:34   #97
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Re: Missing Cat

The vessel capsized in the storm. When found it was ripped apart and sunk during the attempted salvage. The 3 sailors bodies have not been recovered.

A sad event that will continue to be discussed under many topics. Blue water boats, weather routing, storm tactics, Epirbs and the ever popular mono vs multi.

My condolences to the families and I tip my glass to lost sailors.
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Old 21-07-2016, 17:16   #98
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Re: Missing Cat

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Some more of this incident in the media in South Africa.

Bigger Than The Weather
Wow, not registering Epirb then faking docs...
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Old 22-07-2016, 05:42   #99
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Re: Missing Cat

I don't understand how the false epirb documentation matters. If the epirb was registered to another TUI boat, as seems to be the case, TUI would still have gotten the call. Now if they got the call and denied the emergency because they thought the boat to which the epirb was registered was safe in its charter grounds, that would be horrible. Or, if they did not do the requisite safety checks on the epirb the article describes as having taken place in the past, also terrible. I would like to know why the epirb never activated - was it of the manual activation type, rather than hydrostatic? Did being below water block the signal?

The overall behavior of TUI was reprehensible, of course. From their dismissal of the families to their heavy handed approach to influencing skippers' decisions. I've actually never chartered with TUI, but making am ethical decision here would be hard, given that TUI is the only choice in some destinations, and even the non-TUI charters I have done use TUI boats that have come off their charter. How many customers know enough to demand ethical delivery?

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Old 22-07-2016, 06:41   #100
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Re: Missing Cat

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I don't understand how the false epirb documentation matters. If the epirb was registered to another TUI boat, as seems to be the case, TUI would still have gotten the call. Now if they got the call and denied the emergency because they thought the boat to which the epirb was registered was safe in its charter grounds, that would be horrible. Or, if they did not do the requisite safety checks on the epirb the article describes as having taken place in the past, also terrible. I would like to know why the epirb never activated - was it of the manual activation type, rather than hydrostatic? Did being below water block the signal?

The overall behavior of TUI was reprehensible, of course. From their dismissal of the families to their heavy handed approach to influencing skippers' decisions. I've actually never chartered with TUI, but making am ethical decision here would be hard, given that TUI is the only choice in some destinations, and even the non-TUI charters I have done use TUI boats that have come off their charter. How many customers know enough to demand ethical delivery?

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I'm sure if the family decides to bring legal action there will be a hefty conflict of law/choice of law phase - but I think there's pretty strong pattern of neglect... there's certainly a callousness re human life - perhaps the captain and crew were lost in one dramatic event and it wouldn't have mattered, but there's no way to know because the opportune moment had been lost.
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Old 22-07-2016, 06:50   #101
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Re: Missing Cat

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Originally Posted by brownoarsman View Post
I don't understand how the false epirb documentation matters. If the epirb was registered to another TUI boat, as seems to be the case, TUI would still have gotten the call. Now if they got the call and denied the emergency because they thought the boat to which the epirb was registered was safe in its charter grounds, that would be horrible. Or, if they did not do the requisite safety checks on the epirb the article describes as having taken place in the past, also terrible. I would like to know why the epirb never activated - was it of the manual activation type, rather than hydrostatic? Did being below water block the signal?

The overall behavior of TUI was reprehensible, of course. From their dismissal of the families to their heavy handed approach to influencing skippers' decisions. I've actually never chartered with TUI, but making am ethical decision here would be hard, given that TUI is the only choice in some destinations, and even the non-TUI charters I have done use TUI boats that have come off their charter. How many customers know enough to demand ethical delivery?

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Falsifying documents means they felt the need to falsify, i.e. there is more to it. Secondly it is possible EPIRB was activated, but by not having it registered the signal didnt route to the correct/any recipient. Thirdly, it means TUI is taking shortcuts, sacrificing human safety for corporate KPIs.

What a read! Will make me think twice about chartering with TUI or buying a boat from TUI.
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Old 22-07-2016, 07:00   #102
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Re: Missing Cat

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Originally Posted by brownoarsman View Post
I don't understand how the false epirb documentation matters. If the epirb was registered to another TUI boat, as seems to be the case, TUI would still have gotten the call. Now if they got the call and denied the emergency because they thought the boat to which the epirb was registered was safe in its charter grounds, that would be horrible. Or, if they did not do the requisite safety checks on the epirb the article describes as having taken place in the past, also terrible. I would like to know why the epirb never activated - was it of the manual activation type, rather than hydrostatic? Did being below water block the signal?

The overall behavior of TUI was reprehensible, of course. From their dismissal of the families to their heavy handed approach to influencing skippers' decisions. I've actually never chartered with TUI, but making am ethical decision here would be hard, given that TUI is the only choice in some destinations, and even the non-TUI charters I have done use TUI boats that have come off their charter. How many customers know enough to demand ethical delivery?

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Regarding the EPIRB, it had been previously registered to one of the TUI boats and had been on the international EPIRB data base. However, because Mariner Yachts had not used it for nearly two years and had not paid their annual licence fees with ICASA (Mariner Yachts had actually cancelled the license with them), the EPIRB registration was removed from the international database. It would have shown up if it transmitted properly although nobody would have known for what vessel or who to contact. This said, no signal was ever received from the EPIRB nor was there any unidentified EPIRB signal received from the Southern Indian Ocean at the time of Banzi or for the next three months.

But we have to go back to the history of the EPIRB to fully understand the implications of Mariner Yachts not registering it for the specific vessel and voyage. Other than breaking the law by non-compliance and a bit of forgery thrown in, the EPIRBs on delivery yachts have no fixed brackets as the owners do not want damaged bulkheads etc. So, the EPIRBS do occasionally get damaged, sometimes flying around inside the boat if not properly stowed and also get damaged when thrown around in luggage when being flown home after the delivery is completed - they do not stay with the boat as the boats are used for charter in sheltered areas where VHF communications are always available. To ensure the proper operation of the EPIRB it needs to be bench-tested and that occurs normally if it is properly registered and programmed for each new boat. It gets placed on a dedicated rack during programming which cycles it to ensure it is properly programmed and that there are no unseen circuit problems internally and that the antenna and battery are correct and working as designed. They get rejected if problems are found - the EPIRB in question was never registered and programmed and thus never bench-tested, so we will never know if it contained any internal faults.
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Old 22-07-2016, 07:54   #103
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Re: Missing Cat

Thank you, JohnT, for a very cogent explanation of the EPIRB situation. I was unaware that the specific type of usage they get put to in delivery service had these ramifications.

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Old 22-07-2016, 09:10   #104
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Re: Missing Cat

I think it a safe bet the EPIRB was never activated. Registered or not the signal would have been logged.

The boat flipped and the crew were not in position to hit the save me button.

A sad loss and a reminder of the dangers.
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Old 22-07-2016, 09:28   #105
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Re: Missing Cat

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The boat flipped and the crew were not in position to hit the save me button.
...or it was trapped underneath and never water activated.
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