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Old 30-08-2014, 16:48   #31
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Re: Marinas Think We Are Chickens For Plucking

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Originally Posted by Celestialsailor View Post
I agree BB it should have been in writing but $100 for 20 minutes (if in fact it was 20 minutes) is not low.
I took a video with my phone of the old coming out and new one coming through companion way and the video(s) are time stamped about 10 minutes apart.
And yeah, I could have got it all in writing but for such a small amount, I don't know. I was an electrical and general contractor back in California and am well aware of what can go wrong. But even if it was in writing he did try to bill me for a haul he never did. This incident is the icing on the cake.
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Old 30-08-2014, 18:18   #32
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Re: Marinas Think We Are Chickens For Plucking

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Honestly, we don't know exactly what was said by anyone. What we do know is that both the marina and the boat owner made a mistake by not putting it in writing. 50/50. Both at fault. While $340 might have been high, I think most would realize $100 was too low.
Correct. We are only getting one side of the story. But that doesn't stop the masses from bashing the entire boatyard industry.
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Old 30-08-2014, 18:57   #33
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Re: Marinas Think We Are Chickens For Plucking

Jeez - Nothing happens for $100, anywhere in the west.

20 minutes? I call BS - Nothing happens in 20 minutes.

Who delivered the crane and set it up? Who took the crane away and stored it?

How much total time did two "laborers" spend on your job start to finish? Wait that's rhetorical.

What if these were paid labor and not owner operators and he had to pay salaries? Wait that's rhetorical too.

And the final question is why didn't you pull the engine out with a boom sling like I did with a buddies help?

Oh. Didn't want to? Didn't have friends? Needed labor?

Get real. This guy has overhead (not just the facility but what if he dropped your engine (insurance etc)) and this guy probably spent at least 2 hours on your job - 240 / 2 /2 = $60 an hour before taxes.

Quite whining.
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Old 30-08-2014, 20:27   #34
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Re: Marinas Think We Are Chickens For Plucking

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Jeez - Nothing happens for $100, anywhere in the west.

20 minutes? I call BS - Nothing happens in 20 minutes.

Who delivered the crane and set it up? Who took the crane away and stored it?

How much total time did two "laborers" spend on your job start to finish? Wait that's rhetorical.

What if these were paid labor and not owner operators and he had to pay salaries? Wait that's rhetorical too.

And the final question is why didn't you pull the engine out with a boom sling like I did with a buddies help?

Oh. Didn't want to? Didn't have friends? Needed labor?

Get real. This guy has overhead (not just the facility but what if he dropped your engine (insurance etc)) and this guy probably spent at least 2 hours on your job - 240 / 2 /2 = $60 an hour before taxes.

Quite whining.
I think you missed the point but I will quite whining!!!!!
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Old 30-08-2014, 20:33   #35
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Re: Marinas Think We Are Chickens For Plucking

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I think you missed the point but I will quite whining!!!!!
Sorry - Not intending to pick on you (too much) - If the point is the "hidden" costs, I understand the surprise factor.

If I asked one or two of our "boatyard guys" to give me a hand for 20 minutes I would not expect to get a bill from the sailing club. But if I did I might whine to the manager, then Mea Culpa, lesson learned.

But then next time they asked for my help, or to borrow a tool, I'd be sending him a bill. I can guarantee my "shop" rates and tool rental fees are way bigger than his - LOL...
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Old 30-08-2014, 21:14   #36
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Re: Marinas Think We Are Chickens For Plucking

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20 minutes? I call BS - Nothing happens in 20 minutes.
This is just a web forum, we have only the word of the OP as to what the exact situation was, where the crane was, yard rules for labour, etc.

In the example I cited, you're right, it wasn't 20 min. The actual hoist was more like 10 min, from positioning over the companionway and hookup on the engine, to placement on the truck. Because we prepared well.

Now it did take time to track down the yard manager, and then wait for the yard guy to come back from lunch, and it did take 10 min to move the crane to the boat, and again to move it back... but still it was just one guy, and well under an hour of actual work. So, assuming $100/hr is reasonable for under one hour of crane time, I would still say $340 for a simple hoist is a gouge. YMMV.
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Old 30-08-2014, 21:58   #37
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Re: Marinas Think We Are Chickens For Plucking

I would think the crane at $100hr, would include someone to get the crane to the site(operator), and to return it(operator). In the meantime, I would think the use of the crane would include an operator, unless the marina was actually renting me the crane with the understanding that I needed to get my own operator ... maybe even I could run the crane ... yeh ... get real.

I once made the mistake of asking my marina to remove my 9.9hp motor(I've got a bad back). They did ... and it cost me $289. 2 men at $xx per hour, a towboat(to bring my boat to the work dock and a separate charge for a towmotor and operator.

Another time I had another boat service company come get the motor for a tuneup(to NOT pay my marina a surcharge), and they sent a single guy who went to my boat, unscrewed the motor, lifted it out, put it in his truck and take it to his shop ... for free(plus the cost of a tuneup.

One winter I paid my marina for taking my motor off, winterizing it and storing it inside(all at a cost of about $100 ... so much for that $289 bill). Well, they took the money, but come March I found my motor was left out all winter.

Another time I paid to have 3 batteries taken out and trickle charged for winter ... you guessed it, next spring the batteries were in my boat ... almost dead. Instead of offering my money back they said they'd store/charge the batteries the following winter.

Fine ... but next spring launch they didn't put the batteries back in the boat(remember, I have a bad back and the battery fee includes removal, charging and replacement).

Generally speaking(and I might be wrong ... but don't much care), I think most marinas and boat mechanics are a grade more devious than auto mechanics and generally, not to be trusted.

That BOAT= bring out another thousand, is probably nothing more than the war-cry of profiteering marina owners ... I think it's nothing more than their justification to screw the "richie rich's", who, in their mind, must all be well to do, with loads of disposable income just itching to get into their pockets.
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Old 30-08-2014, 23:22   #38
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Re: Marinas Think We Are Chickens For Plucking

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Originally Posted by Ex-Calif View Post
Jeez - Nothing happens for $100, anywhere in the west.

20 minutes? I call BS - Nothing happens in 20 minutes.

Who delivered the crane and set it up? Who took the crane away and stored it?

How much total time did two "laborers" spend on your job start to finish? Wait that's rhetorical.

What if these were paid labor and not owner operators and he had to pay salaries? Wait that's rhetorical too.

And the final question is why didn't you pull the engine out with a boom sling like I did with a buddies help?

Oh. Didn't want to? Didn't have friends? Needed labor?

Get real. This guy has overhead (not just the facility but what if he dropped your engine (insurance etc)) and this guy probably spent at least 2 hours on your job - 240 / 2 /2 = $60 an hour before taxes.

Quite whining.
I call B.S. on your B.S. I've done it twice in less than 1/2 hour each time. It's about having everything well organized.
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Old 30-08-2014, 23:38   #39
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Re: Marinas Think We Are Chickens For Plucking

Who would have thought we could be arguing over who's removal was the shortest?
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Old 30-08-2014, 23:42   #40
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Re: Marinas Think We Are Chickens For Plucking

It was implied that the OP was embellishing the facts. Not fair if your not there...I'm just saying.
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Old 31-08-2014, 03:42   #41
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Re: Marinas Think We Are Chickens For Plucking

For the BSers calling BS on my BS, I call BS...

Sure - When everything was completely disconnected and the engine mounts disconnected and the saildrive disconnected the actual lift on my boat was like 3 minutes to set it on the dock.

All I am saying is that when you are "deploying" paid manpower, nothing happens in 20 minutes. I understand this is father/son, owner/operator. but if I am paying Luigi for 8 hours work I am going to bill his time to you from the minute he starts getting off his butt to go do your job.

Caveat Sailor. l'm 50+ I learned to get quotes in writing in my 30's. Not to say I haven't been "stung" since then but for me there are lots more ways to get honey than argue over a couple of boat bucks.

Also I am not trying to pick a fight with anyone. And yes, this guy may end up out of business compared to the guy that sends his kid over in a truck to pick up your outboard and store for the winter.

But if I were the business owner and paying Luigi $20 an hour, you'd likely get billed for a pick up fee. And if you say I am overpaying Luigi and I should get min wage staff, you can't bitch when my staff doesn't know how to program your MPPT controller.

I am a little perplexed that some people think sending a crane and two guys to haul an engine should cost $100. Now if I had a quote for $340 I probably wouldn't accept it.

Wait, I didn't. I pulled my engine myself...

<edit - PS. This thread is one reason that there is a CF rule around here somewhere that "vendor disputes" are off limits. We only get one side of the story and then we end up arguing internally over something we have no party to and no influence over. But hey, I swallowed the hook - LOL>
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Old 31-08-2014, 08:13   #42
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Re: Marinas Think We Are Chickens For Plucking

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All I am saying is that when you are "deploying" paid manpower, nothing happens in 20 minutes.
Fair enough. And crane + op + 2 guys will definitely cost north of $100. I don't know that a couple of yard-hands are worth $100+/hr each...

One of my friends in the mobile service trade confirms the general impression that sailors are... cheap. He works mainly for power-boaters because they seldom quibble about estimates and bills. (also, everything is bigger - boats, engines, bills) Must be the conditioning to spend from filling up so often.

I... am also cheap (though I prefer terms like efficient and resourceful). Every time I hear about maintenance bills for inboard engines, I hug my outboard, and put off getting that larger boat for yet another year.
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Old 31-08-2014, 09:25   #43
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Re: Marinas Think We Are Chickens For Plucking

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For the BSers calling BS on my BS, I call BS...

<edit - PS. This thread is one reason that there is a CF rule around here somewhere that "vendor disputes" are off limits. We only get one side of the story and then we end up arguing internally over something we have no party to and no influence over. But hey, I swallowed the hook - LOL>
And I call BS on your BS call of BS. lol

Well, at least no vendor names mentioned. Reality is you enter into a written agreement. If you can't agree, you move on. If you take a chance on verbal and there's then a misunderstanding, you only have yourself to blame.

Now as to the reasonableness of the charge, there are many factors. If I was a marina and shipyard owner and a customer wanted a significant amount of service as in this case my yard actually working on his engine or boat, then I'd give the best price I could. But if it was just the use of my equipment and operator and a couple of men, then I would charge full price and if that's called gouging, then so be it. Perhaps he should go to a true DIY yard.

Now I don't know the details of all that took place or of the history or relationship. I don't know if so dissatisfied why the OP kept going back.

But I think the title of this thread is ridiculous and to take such a broad stroke shot at all marinas as some do is also. Perhaps it's the way one selects them. There are excellent and fair marinas out there. If you never seem to hit one, then perhaps you need to reexamine how you approach it and not blame all marinas. I've owned powerboats since I was 13 and I've consistently had excellent service by marinas. First on the lake. Now in South Florida. But I've chosen an excellent marina, established a relationship, approached it business like and professionally, and received reasonable pricing (discounted off their list) for my loyalty. And at the primary shipyard we use we are a very small customer compared to most. Our boats are like toys compared to the yachts they refit. We are certainly not where they make their money, but to their credit they treat all customers well.
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Old 31-08-2014, 11:05   #44
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Re: Marinas Think We Are Chickens For Plucking

If the engine was not ready then $340 is reasonable. If engine was ready, and he needed no other labor help besides himself and the crane, then $100 it is.

However, I think the truth is probably somewhere in between. Supposing the engine was unhooked it still takes several hands to get a monohull engine out without damaging or bumping into anything right? At the very least you need someone repeating commands to the crane operator.


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Old 31-08-2014, 11:24   #45
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Re: Marinas Think We Are Chickens For Plucking

Most yards have a minimum charge for equipment, usually the charge includes a banksman (spotter/signalman) which protects the provider from a damage claim. The bad part of this equation is the details were not agreed to prior to the lift. Yes in writing. Take your beating like a man, and use it as a learning tool for the next round.
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