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Old 03-12-2015, 20:11   #61
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Re: Marina fees, common or gauging?

maus-
" So I planned to buy it separately until I was told he might refuse to install it if I did not also purchase it through him. Hmm!! "
That's not unusual, and not totally irrational. I know some folks who follow that policy simply because they will warranty their own own, installing installation and DOA problems, but they can't and won't be responsible for checking out the same gear if you've bought it elsewhere, and they're taking a loss as a result of it.
"All or none" may seem uncompromising, but it is not totally irrational especially when it is clearly said up front. Sure, they could say DOAs aren't their problem, or DOAs are going to be additional charges, but having been in that position I can tell you very few folks are happy no matter how it plays out, so they are probably basing their policy on bitter experience--not simple greed.


As to yards and contractor fees...that's something like yacht club restaurants. The members want a restaurant, but they don't always want to eat there...so the YC often says you'll pay $500 (whatever) a month for the restaurant, use it or not, and that guarantees they'll have enough income to hire a decent cook and wait staff, to keep it open and in good order whether you do or don't want to eat their on any particular day.
Same thing with contractors: They could supply one, or authorize one, but they might have to guarantee a minimum of business. So there's a line to be drawn between "piggy piggy" and "gotta keep the staff paid in case you need them."


When it seems unreasonable, for any of the above, then it is time to have a heart to heart, or to vote with your feet. Even professionals (ophthamologists, dentists) know that sometimes, some patients are worth keeping--even if it means compromising on the "we never haggle" fees.


The only thing I call really unreasonable is when they bush you, and spring the extras as a nasty unexpected surprise. THAT I won't accept.
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Old 03-12-2015, 20:12   #62
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Re: Marina fees, common or gauging?

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Originally Posted by a64pilot View Post
This is extremely common and for some reasons you may not have thought about, obviously he makes money on selling the equipment, but if he installs equipment you bring in, who is responsible when and or if it doesn't work? Who pays for the trouble shooting to ensure it's bad equipment and not a bad install? You willing to pay him full price if things don't work? What will your attitude be when things don't work? Supplier will most likely try to say it was incorrectly installed or damaged during installation, often owner supplied electronics has no warranty as it wasn't bought from an authorized re-seller, list goes on and on. Most have learned two things, if you insist on supplying the equipment your likely a cheap skate, and it is often far more trouble than it's worth.
I take the belief if I buy it at the best price possible, I'm installing it myself which always saves money, often results in a better install and I am real familiar with the install when the day comes that it needs fixing.

But think of it this way, do you take your own parts with your car when you have it worked on, or your own medical supplies with you to the Dr's office or Hospital?
thanks A64pilot I had considered the points you make.
Of course he makes a profit on the sale and I would be the last to begrudge him a fair profit. But is his profit fair and competitive.
I also freely admit to being a "cheapskate" Like the overwhelming majority of consumers I take into consideration cost and quality when making a purchase. I assume there are people out there where cost is not a consideration but I don't know any personally.
As to guarantees and warranties equipment failure and faulty installation rarely get confused and in the developing country where I live warranties are worthless anyway.

We live in a rapidly changing and disruptive commercial environment where new technology has has unsettled complacent traditional commercial models. eBay, music download, Uber are examples and are only the tip of the iceberg. Affected businesses need to adapt or fail. Restrictive trade practises or legal prohibition is not the solution and ultimately detrimental to everyone. Isn't that the point of a market economy.
Finally I know my skills and my limitatations and perfectly happy to pay a fair and competitive price to a qualified person.

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Old 03-12-2015, 20:27   #63
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Re: Marina fees, common or gauging?

"Uber are examples"
Actually, Uber is an example of people trying to bypass existing systems. Part of this is the ridiculous price for taxi medallions in big cities. That's a government regulated monopoly and arguably should be illegal, but that's what it is. A medallion fetches over a million dollar in NYC, and if you amortize that out like a mortgage, you MUST keep the taxi in service shifts per day, every day of the week, in order to pretty much just pay the expenses on the investment, and pay the poor guys driving it for cheap meals. The ROI has gone so far beyond rational that it begged for an Uber solution, i.e. one that mades taxis available without taxis.
Except of course, that's usually illegal, and non-commercial insurance doesn't allow for it either. Once a couple of big suits come up and that gets pushed out, the drivers may become a little harder to find. Although I hear there's a class action suit in Cali that is trying to class them as employees (good argument that they are) and that will upset Uber's paymasters as well.


People are looking for new solutions as the old ones prove not to work. But if taxi medallions were simply priced rationally...there'd be no need for Uber. Politics, that's all.
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Old 03-12-2015, 22:09   #64
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Re: Marina fees, common or gauging?

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Originally Posted by a64pilot View Post

But think of it this way, do you take your own parts with your car when you have it worked on, or your own medical supplies with you to the Dr's office or Hospital?
Actually, I do bring specialty parts that I want added to my truck, and I have worked in areas (Peru) where the patient is given a list of medications that may be helpful in his surgery, he buys what he can and we give him the anesthetic.

Here in Oregon, we sail to a different dock to get major work done, the rest we do ourselves on our dock. No one complains, and no one cares. Always maintaining the bright work and washing the moss off....
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Old 03-12-2015, 22:27   #65
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Re: Marina fees, common or gauging?

Actually, I've had a hospital say "We don't stock that in our pharmacy, can you bring your own meds?" and you can save $50 per pill by doing that. Somehow, they need to charge $50 per pill for their meds, but they can secure, hold, and dispense your own pills for free.


Even worse, for the pill that was involved here, the one they dispense causes permanent and irrevocable damage as a collateral side effect. The one I take, costs about a penny more and has no such problem. But most hospitals only stock the cheaper one, saying "Oh, they're the same". And ALL the literature says they're not.


Hospitals are fast to run IV's at $100 per liter. The saline or sugar solution they use costs a dollar per liter. And yet, if you are capable of swallowing? With no dietary restrictions? They feel the IV is necessary, when they could give you a glass of water for free.


There's a BIG difference between the for-profit hospitals and the non-profit ones, and also a not-so-publicized program from the Fed that requires a great many of them to accommodate and reduce prices based on your circumstances.


Very different from marinas.
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Old 03-12-2015, 22:46   #66
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Re: Marina fees, common or gauging?

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Originally Posted by svHyLyte View Post
Citation please. Lexis doesn't seem to be able to find such a "law"...
Took me about 5 seconds:

Differences Between Marinas And Boat Yards

The guidance document assumes that boat yard operations are synomymous with marina operations, which describes conditions as they exist on the east coast. However, in California, marinas and boat yards are separate and distinct business entities engaged in completely different functions.

Boat yards (SIC code 3732) are industrial marine facilities which haul boats onto dry land for purposes of repair and maintenance.

Marinas (SIC code 4493), on the other hand, are basins with slips available to rent to boaters who keep their vessels in the water. Very few marinas in California also contain boat yards which are subject to Industrial Stormwater Permits.


http://www.waterboards.ca.gov/ssi/se....0.yCOjNX7sjWg
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Old 03-12-2015, 22:47   #67
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Re: Marina fees, common or gauging?

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I submit that it is you who are looking at it from the wrong perspective. Marine services are mobile because in the very great majority of cases, it doesn't make sense to bring the boat to a topside detailer or a hull cleaner or a mechanic or a sailmaker or a rigger etc., etc., etc. It is much easier, more convenient and less expensive for these services to come to the boat. And how attractive would any marina be if they did not allow these services to come to their tenants?

Further, the service provider is not "setting up shop" in a marina. He is temporarily working aboard a boat in a slip that has already been rented by the mutual customer. What you are suggesting is akin to an apartment building owner charging the plumber to come in and fix a leaky faucet for one of his renters.

It doesn't make sense to set up a stand alone shop because it's much cheaper to pay a commission to work within the marina. Obviously as a service provider, you would prefer to cut your overhead, so I understand your perspective.


Not true at all. Marinas typically make no claim about the veracity of the service providers they allow on to the property, other than that they have jumped through whatever insurance hoops the marina requires.

You are misrepresenting my point. The marina makes no statement but I guarantee once things turn to turd, they will get drug into it. If they follow your lead, they have to deal with this, while making ZERO off it.

The marina doesn't own the customer base. It is not theirs to dole out as they see fit and I suspect most boat owners see it that way as well.

Likewise, you don't own the marina, so you have no intrinsic right to set up shop without thier approval. Your implication is that the marina prohibits customers from taking thier boats to other facilities for work.

But the bottom line is that any service provider who is being charged to do work in a particular marina is simply going to pass that fee along to the customer. It's the boat owner who is getting screwed, not the service provider.
Sure, the fee gets passed along. They are a buisness not a charity but in most cases the fee is drastically less than if the service provide had to add in the cost of providing a dedicated buisness place on the water.
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Old 03-12-2015, 22:54   #68
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Re: Marina fees, common or gauging?

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Originally Posted by fstbttms View Post

Boat yards (SIC code 3732) are industrial marine facilities which haul boats onto dry land for purposes of repair and maintenance.

Marinas (SIC code 4493), on the other hand, are basins with slips available to rent to boaters who keep their vessels in the water. Very few marinas in California also contain boat yards which are subject to Industrial Stormwater Permits.


www.waterboards.ca.gov/publications_forms/.../general/.../l498.pdf

Glad you've located the SIC codes but not sure what sharing them with us proves?

Your link is incomplete. Suggest you share the entire path of the .pdf and perhaps even cut/paste the exact text that proves your point.
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Old 03-12-2015, 22:56   #69
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Re: Marina fees, common or gauging?

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It doesn't make sense to set up a stand alone shop because it's much cheaper to pay a commission to work within the marina. Obviously as a service provider, you would prefer to cut your overhead, so I understand your perspective.
Well, just be clear, this situation DOES NOT exist in California. Service providers here DO NOT pay a commision to work on marina property.

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You are misrepresenting my point. The marina makes no statement but I guarantee once things turn to turd, they will get drug into it. If they follow your lead, they have to deal with this, while making ZERO off it.
I have been in the boat maintenance business for over twenty years. You have not. I have never seen a single instance where the marina was dragged into a dispute between a service provider and a mutual client, simply by dint of the marina allowing the service provider access to the boat. Have you?

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Likewise, you don't own the marina, so you have no intrinsic right to set up shop without thier approval.
Again, nobody is setting up shop. If I come in, spend 30 or 40 minutes cleaning a boat bottom and then leave, how is that "setting up shop"? It's not, plain and simple.

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Your implication is that the marina prohibits customers from taking thier boats to other facilities for work.
Never said it, never implied it. Don't have the slightest clue how you came to that conclusion.
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Old 03-12-2015, 23:00   #70
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Re: Marina fees, common or gauging?

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Glad you've located the SIC codes but not sure what sharing them with us proves?

Your link is incomplete. Suggest you share the entire path of the .pdf and perhaps even cut/paste the exact text that proves your point.
My post quotes the text from the State Waterboard .pdf. It is not the SIC codes. And maybe you should try the link again. I gotta hold your hand through this whole thing?
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Old 03-12-2015, 23:52   #71
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Re: Marina fees, common or gauging?

I really am interested in what your point is about the whole boatyards and marinas not being allowed together in CA. CA has some interesting rules so that should not surprise me--but I've seen very few boatyards that don't have a marina, too. It's nice that you shared the SIC codes (that's a definition not a law) for the two different business entities.

Thanks for going back and trying to fix the link in your first post. Unfortunately, you didn't fix it. The link was to a pdf but it had that little ... dots thing going on and here's the screenshot below. The fixed link is just to a search window--no pdf just a list. The screenshot of it is below. What would probably be best would be for YOU to make a screenshot of what you're seeing that makes you think there's a law about it all.

Thanks again.
Brenda



1st link first and then your fixed link second:



second link:


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Old 03-12-2015, 23:53   #72
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Re: Marina fees, common or gauging?

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My post quotes the text from the State Waterboard .pdf. It is not the SIC codes. And maybe you should try the link again. I gotta hold your hand through this whole thing?
actually I tried the link and it came up broken for me.
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Old 04-12-2015, 05:22   #73
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Re: Marina fees, common or gauging?

Is this problem of fees something that's common in marinas where slip fees are cheap or is it something you see in any type of marina? I have a boat (35ft) in The Netherlands and pay about €1.000/year including electricity, water etc. No charges for outside contractors or whatsoever. This is however a marina run by the Yacht Club and not a commercial marina. Commercial marina's tend to be much more expensive in The Netherlands.
I think actually that Valhalla's reasoning is a bit strange. It's a bit like a car manufacturer charging a car wash because without the manufacturer the washer wouldn't have a car to wash.
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Old 04-12-2015, 08:09   #74
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Re: Marina fees, common or gauging?

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I really am interested in what your point is about the whole boatyards and marinas not being allowed together in CA.
I made the point because it is germain to the discussion about service providers competing with marinas. They don't compete with marinas in this state for the very reason I mentioned.
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Old 04-12-2015, 09:02   #75
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Re: Marina fees, common or gauging?

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I made the point because it is germain to the discussion about service providers competing with marinas. They don't compete with marinas in this state for the very reason I mentioned.
Your comments Might be "germane" if the Original Poster/Questioner were in California, but he/she is not but is in southwest Florida; and, if your citation were relevant/applicable but it is not. There is no statutory limitation on a business simultaneously owning and operating a "boatyard" and a "marina" (although each are subject to different standards as to wastewater discharge limitations/requirements et al). Moreover, such a statute would be unenforceable being both a "prior restraint" and a "restraint of trade".

As to the OP's question, given his/her locale, it is not uncommon that a "marina" operated/owned in conjunction with a "boatyard" would have limitations/restrictions/conditions on a tenant's employment of an outside contractor. More salient, even if the "marina" was not operated in conjunction with a "boatyard", if the terms of his/her slip rental/lease agreement stipulated that outside contractors were prohibited save by operating through the office of said marina--which could charge a fee for such "service"--the terms of the rental/lease agreement would bind the tenant.

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