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Old 04-03-2014, 16:44   #451
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Re: Man Washes up in Marshall Islands 'After 16 Months Adrift'

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Originally Posted by jtsailjt View Post
...if he had a refrigerator to keep it in for a long time. In a very warm, moist environment like the one he was in, flesh quickly begins to rot and eating rotten meat will make you sick and that will rob you of the nutrients you hoped to gain as well as dehydrate you.

"... an empty desert like ocean."
Think of your favorite place on the ocean and then think of the worst weather you would see in a typical year at that spot and then try to imagine if anyone would be likely to survive in an open, 24' boat out there, keeping in mind that person would be badly fatigued and weakened and without equipment to steer or sail the boat or even change its orientation to the wind/waves.

You REALLY don't find it hard to believe?
We don't know exactly how he could survive, we may never known given his mental status. When he got to Marshall Island, he had nothing left on the boat. I guess he must have lost his mind during the ordeal and threw away his tools.

If I were him and still having a sound mind. I would cut up the turtle to dry under the sun to make jerky. Anything remaining I leave it in water to keep cool and attract more sea life. There is no pathogens in open water or flies. The meat will decay and will not make you sick.

Yes, it is tough for him at the beginning. But once his body got used to the environment, he could survive.

On the other side of coin, what was his motive to fabricate the whole thing? He was not a rich Salvadoran to cook up this scheme. I only wish Alvarenga will fully recover. Perhaps someone will help him to write a book. It is an extraordinary survival story. I doubt I could match his will in this situation. Yes, I can live with his story.
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Old 04-03-2014, 17:20   #452
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Re: Man Washes up in Marshall Islands 'After 16 Months Adrift'

After just a few days of solo sailing I start talking to myself. . . . Prisoners in solitary say it is torture, pure and simple. . . . So beyond his phyical endurance and resourcefulness, I can't imagine what depths of mental anguish Alvarenga had to endure.
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Old 04-03-2014, 17:34   #453
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Re: Man Washes up in Marshall Islands 'After 16 Months Adrift'

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Originally Posted by jtsailjt View Post
I don't think that being initially very skeptical about what this guy apparently survived was attacking him at all. It was only common sense. The early reports were contradictory and none of us could even understand what he was saying, no facts had yet been confirmed, and for the story to be true, he would had to have done something nobody had ever done before, by quite a large margin.
By quite a laaarrrge margin.

Thats a great post, Jtsaltjt.

It does look more like, on the balance of probabilities as we know the facts, that he has achieved this feat.
Its sure as hell one that no one will want to emulate to prove!

But to apologise for waiting for better facts? Get real. If the poor police of this world believed everything they get told there would be a lot of crooks out on the streets.

The thing with people with intelligent enquiring minds is that they want facts, and lots of them, before believing the unbelievable.

I wonder if Alvarenga wants to go fishing again?
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Old 04-03-2014, 18:05   #454
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Re: Man Washes up in Marshall Islands 'After 16 Months Adrift'

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The thing with people with intelligent enquiring minds is that they want facts, and lots of them, before believing the unbelievable.
84% of the worlds population follows a religion which requires them to ignore facts and simply have 'faith'. Many of them base their lives on believing the unbelievable all because some years ago a King in another land commissioned the writing of a storybook.
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Old 04-03-2014, 18:12   #455
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Re: Man Washes up in Marshall Islands 'After 16 Months Adrift'

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Opinions are neither right nor wrong when expressed, just opinions. Some folks suggest that opinions are like a** holes, everyone has one! Many people are so bloody uptight about being right, and when, by chance, they get lucky and get it right they want all those that were wrong to fess up. Most of everything that is said on this forum are opinions, move on!
So, if I had an opinion (strongly held, but flimsily based, perhaps on inferences I drew from contradictions in early "breaking" news stories) that the local Scoutmaster's interest in his charges was dubious, and I announced my opinion to the wider world via the internet, and it turns out that he's on the level? No harm, no foul? Move on? Nothing to see here?


The suggestions that the fisherman's story was fishy amounted in this thread to a suite of accusations, some of which could be classified as serious: manufacturing an elaborate tale to manipulate the world's sympathies, disappearing with intent to deceive, and (from some quarters) the frisson of gratuitous cannibalism.

These are strong claims, and strong claims, especially claims which attack credibility and character, require strong evidence.

Was it just dumb luck, that some of those who had doubts waited for some facts before blurting them out?

- - - -

Relating to (I think) another recent post:

It's frankly perplexing to be told, in effect, that "We have busy lives, we've moved on".
If your life allows time to denigrate, but not to rehabilitate, it seems to me a conveniently selective definition of busy-ness.
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Old 04-03-2014, 18:18   #456
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Re: Man Washes up in Marshall Islands 'After 16 Months Adrift'

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When the missionary first came to my village to spread the words that God created the world, Adam and Eve, I laughed. The next day, we beat the sh*t out of him and told him never return, poisoning our minds hurting our love for our Buddha. . It is the most insult to our intelligence.
I hope you were just trying to get attention or something with that paragraph. I don't know what the smile was about. I do know that would be insulting to every Buddhist I've ever known, clearly contrary to the factor of right action and believing in Buddhist concepts one would expect bad karma to result. One doesn't use religion to beat up people. So the most insult to intelligence is that action, if it took place, and then apparently posting proudly about it.

I don't honestly know how religion came into this discussion.
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Old 04-03-2014, 18:41   #457
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Re: Man Washes up in Marshall Islands 'After 16 Months Adrift'

It's a straw man argument which involves the neat manoeuvre of twisting a "defence" assertion thru 180 deg, to portray the "prosecution" side as being asked to "apologise for waiting for better facts".

Perhaps I missed the post where people were castigated for not believing the guy's story at face value.

The posts I have written, and seen, are asking people to think twice about DIS-believing the guy's story. We do not live in a binary world.

The ethos "If you are not for us, you are against us" has a lot to answer for.

And language doesn't help, because "I don't believe you" has two separate possible meanings. A thoughtful person might say, to convey one of those meanings "I neither believe nor disbelieve you" and for the other "I believe your story to be false"

(there are no end of alternatives which would make it clear, but first you have to care about the distinction. If you don't, then I hope you never serve on a jury)
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Old 04-03-2014, 18:52   #458
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Re: Man Washes up in Marshall Islands 'After 16 Months Adrift'

def holy_roller?(obj)
troll_analyzer = TrollAnalyzer.new(obj)
return true if troll_analyzer.is_andrew_troup? || troll_analyzer.is_priest?
false
end

post = Post.find(457)
if holy_roller?(post.author)
logger.info "Squashed holy roller #{ post.author.name}"
post.author = nil
end
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Old 04-03-2014, 18:53   #459
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Re: Man Washes up in Marshall Islands 'After 16 Months Adrift'

Waiting is exactly what the "prosecution" did NOT do.

MarkJ appears to believe that the presumption of innocence pending proof of guilt is ass-backwards.

I can't speak for anyone else, but what I'm asking for in future is for the self-appointed prosecution to "WAIT for better facts"

before forming potentially inflammatory opinions.

An ounce of restraint is worth a ship-load of apology.

Never more so than on the internet, where the slightest, most facile supposition is carved in the same durable stone as considered and verified fact.

I omitted to exercise that restraint a couple of days ago in a thread about boombrakes, and as soon as I realised I had done it, I withdrew my questions (which with hindsight had proved to be inflammatory) and apologised. If I could delete the post, I would.

I'm not polishing my CV for sainthood.

Trying to undo harm done is not, to my way of thinking, some sort of soapbox or pedestal.

It's just part of the job description for a social species. Otherwise we're nothing more than bunch of boaties, travelling through the world's anchorages by night at displacement speed, with never a glance over our shoulders, or a thought for the unintended consequences.
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Old 04-03-2014, 19:06   #460
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Re: Man Washes up in Marshall Islands 'After 16 Months Adrift'

Quote:
Originally Posted by SaltyMonkey View Post
def squash_the_holly_roller(obj)
troll_analyzer = TrollAnalyzer.new(obj)
if troll_analyzer.is_andrew_troup? || troll_analyzer.is_priest?
logger.error("Troll #{ obj.name } squashed!"
obj = nil #squash the holly roller
end
end

squash_the_holly_roller(Post.get_author(457))
Nitpicking I know, but I always hate it when developers log something to the error logger that is clearly a informative message. Not to mention stating that something has been done before the action is actually taken.

Now, the only question I have, which has also been raised before in this thread, is how could the boat not be full of turtle skeletons/carapaces, dried fish, bird beaks, etc, etc. This is not to spread doubt about the voyage, because I can't frankly see how he could have possibly gotten there without drifting across the ocean. I am merely interested in knowing more details of how he did it.
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Old 04-03-2014, 20:37   #461
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Re: Man Washes up in Marshall Islands 'After 16 Months Adrift'

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Originally Posted by monstads View Post
Nitpicking I know, but I always hate it when developers log something to the error logger that is clearly a informative message. Not to mention stating that something has been done before the action is actually taken.
File a bug: logger.info

File a bug: log after action please.



Quote:
Originally Posted by monstads View Post
Now, the only question I have, which has also been raised before in this thread, is how could the boat not be full of turtle skeletons/carapaces, dried fish, bird beaks, etc, etc. This is not to spread doubt about the voyage, because I can't frankly see how he could have possibly gotten there without drifting across the ocean. I am merely interested in knowing more details of how he did it.
They did find bones, a couple of turtle shells, and a live bird on the boat. I also remember reading there was a turtle ready for the knife.
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Old 04-03-2014, 20:42   #462
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Re: Man Washes up in Marshall Islands 'After 16 Months Adrift'

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Originally Posted by monstads View Post

Now, the only question I have, which has also been raised before in this thread, is how could the boat not be full of turtle skeletons/carapaces, dried fish, bird beaks, etc, etc.
Humans hoard stuff because they have an advantage. You might not need it now but you sure could soon.

If I was in a boat every fish bone would be saved, i know not what for.
Every turtle shell, bone and sinew.

Sinew to make cord and fishing lines

Maybe the shells to catch water, shells to make knives and harpoons

Bones to make fish hooks.

In the photos below we see just a few things that could be made. They would be treasured by the castaway, never thrown overboard.



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Old 05-03-2014, 07:44   #463
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Re: Man Washes up in Marshall Islands 'After 16 Months Adrift'

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Originally Posted by Andrew Troup View Post
So, if I had an opinion (strongly held, but flimsily based, perhaps on inferences I drew from contradictions in early "breaking" news stories) that the local Scoutmaster's interest in his charges was dubious, and I announced my opinion to the wider world via the internet, and it turns out that he's on the level? No harm, no foul? Move on? Nothing to see here?


The suggestions that the fisherman's story was fishy amounted in this thread to a suite of accusations, some of which could be classified as serious: manufacturing an elaborate tale to manipulate the world's sympathies, disappearing with intent to deceive, and (from some quarters) the frisson of gratuitous cannibalism.

These are strong claims, and strong claims, especially claims which attack credibility and character, require strong evidence.

Was it just dumb luck, that some of those who had doubts waited for some facts before blurting them out?

- - - -

Relating to (I think) another recent post:

It's frankly perplexing to be told, in effect, that "We have busy lives, we've moved on".
If your life allows time to denigrate, but not to rehabilitate, it seems to me a conveniently selective definition of busy-ness.
Of course the difference being that your fictional scoutmaster lives in the same culture as those who doubted him and would obviously be aware of the accusations/doubts, as would all of his family, friends, and associates, so the accusations would impact negatively on how virtually everyone in his sphere of associates related to him and he to them.

But based on what we know about Mr. Alvarenga and his family/friends, I don't think I'm going out on too much of a limb when I suggest that they are but (very) infrequent visitors to this cruising forum so are quite unlikely to ever become aware or care even a little bit about what a bunch of sailors thought about or how they reacted to the early reports of his little adventure in the Pacific. From his perspective, we all might as well be on Mars.

You seem to think that your own approach to this issue was morally superior to those who expressed more skepticism on this site, but I really don't understand your motivation on repeatedly bringing that up here. Many of those who commented are long gone and will never see your posts and what difference would it make to Mr. Alverenga if all those who expressed skepticism took it all back and begged forgiveness for ever doubting him, especially since I'm pretty sure that he has no idea that any of us even exist?
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Old 06-03-2014, 06:07   #464
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Re: Man Washes up in Marshall Islands 'After 16 Months Adrift'

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Originally Posted by Aussiesuede View Post
84% of the worlds population follows a religion which requires them to ignore facts and simply have 'faith'. Many of them base their lives on believing the unbelievable all because some years ago a King in another land commissioned the writing of a storybook.
so true...the "king" was an evil and greedy man too..The folks were taxed to the "high heavens' and were at his door step demanding his head! The king tells them that his scribs have found evidence that the king was right there with God and his son(the father(the King) ,the son(his heir) and the Holy ghost(the one that involved "faith")..most couldnt read so his scribs read it for them, they then went home and the taxing countinued..
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Old 06-03-2014, 06:25   #465
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Re: Man Washes up in Marshall Islands 'After 16 Months Adrift'

Somehow equating any of this to prosecution or a legal defense is absurd. This is a forum response to a news story. No one here is on a jury. No one here is part of the prosecution or has the authority to arrest. No one here is part of a defense team. We simply read a report and either bought the entire story, none of the story, or believed the story was probably partially true and accurate.

There was no statement here of fact and certainly none of false fact. Simply statements of opinion. Those opinions didn't harm the individual or aid him. They didn't condemn him or raise him to a god. They were simply opinions. It's as if someone simply chose to say an actress was beautiful and then many others expressed opinions as to whether they agreed or not.

Sometimes people on a forum overestimate the value and influence of any of the posts there. This isn't CNN posting a news story. This is a group of cruisers, both real and imagined, posting reactions to a news story.

Nothing more, nothing less.
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