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Old 28-03-2017, 20:32   #1
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Long terms effects of water on fiberglass...

I know that I'm asking a lot of questions right now, but I tend to obsess over things and as I think about them I like to ask questions.

My bilge has holes that I can only assume were drilled by previous owners. Two holes are on the rear bilge and drain from the engine compartment into the rear bilge, and two holes are drilled in the forward compartment, and drain into the forward bilge. There is a hole between the two bilges that water can pass through.

From what I can tell, the bilges are part of the interior "liner". I assume that what I am feeling through the holes is the top of the keel, but I am unsure.

If there is water between the actual outer hull, and the interior liner, what kind of damage could I be looking at, and how do I dry it out.

I've attached pictures of the holes in the rear bilge. You can see the holes in the rear. There is water inside those holes that I believe comes from the drip in the packing joint?!?

Also, there is no drain from the v-berth to the bilges. It stops at the bulkhead, which I assume is a safety feature and is supposed to be like that.

The bilge is currently dry as I replaced the entire circuit the other day and installed a manual over ride switch. The only water left is what is outside the bilges that cannot flow up and over the lip where the holes are drilled. If I stick my finger through the forward holes, where I believe I am touching the top of the keel, there is about half a fingers height of water - so maybe about 1/8".
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Old 28-03-2017, 20:39   #2
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Re: Long terms effects of water on fiberglass...

Perhaps this is a better explanation.
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Old 28-03-2017, 21:38   #3
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Re: Long terms effects of water on fiberglass...

Those big nuts and bolts are holding your keel on, and your keel is NOT attached to your liner. So, the bottoms of your bilge sections are not liner. They're the bottom of your hull.

The holes you're referring to are drilled into the liner, though. They simply allow water that collects in a bilge area that doesn't have a pump, to flow to the middle bilge area that does have a pump.

Yes, it makes sense that the drips from your packing gland flow through to the middle bilge area to be pumped out. That's fine.

It's generally a good idea to keep your bilge as dry as possible, but some water is okay, and often fairly unavoidable. Also a good idea to keep your bilge as clean as possible so crud doesn't get sucked into your bilge pump and clog it. Also keeps the bilge from getting smelly. You don't really have to be concerned about the long term effects of the water in there. Your keel bolts will likely be more affected than your fiberglass, and they look okay in your pictures.

You mentioned that your engine compartment drains into the bilge. That is, if I'm understanding you correctly. That's a big NO NO, as any oil leaking from your engine can find it's way to your bilge, where it will be pumped overboard along with the water. Pumping oil overboard is illegal. You might want to confirm if your engine compartment actually drains into the bilges. Others may comment on this more knowledgeably.
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Old 28-03-2017, 21:47   #4
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Re: Long terms effects of water on fiberglass...

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Originally Posted by siamese View Post
Those big nuts and bolts are holding your keel on, and your keel is NOT attached to your liner. So, the bottoms of your bilge sections are not liner. They're the bottom of your hull.

The holes you're referring to are drilled into the liner, though. They simply allow water that collects in a bilge area that doesn't have a pump, to flow to the middle bilge area that does have a pump.

Yes, it makes sense that the drips from your packing gland flow through to the middle bilge area to be pumped out. That's fine.

It's generally a good idea to keep your bilge as dry as possible, but some water is okay, and often fairly unavoidable. Also a good idea to keep your bilge as clean as possible so crud doesn't get sucked into your bilge pump and clog it. Also keeps the bilge from getting smelly. You don't really have to be concerned about the long term effects of the water in there. Your keel bolts will likely be more affected than your fiberglass, and they look okay in your pictures.

You mentioned that your engine compartment drains into the bilge. That is, if I'm understanding you correctly. That's a big NO NO, as any oil leaking from your engine can find it's way to your bilge, where it will be pumped overboard along with the water. Pumping oil overboard is illegal. You might want to confirm if your engine compartment actually drains into the bilges. Others may comment on this more knowledgeably.

Good point about the engine compartment. I'll have to check and verify that tomorrow! But it doesn't look like it does from this photo. So I wonder where that water is coming from then? The outside seats is the only thing that I can gather. Although its not a lot and its probably been in there a while as well.
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Old 28-03-2017, 22:07   #5
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Re: Long terms effects of water on fiberglass...

Those holes are called Limber holes, and are supposed to be there. This is a glass boat, it should be dusty not wet! If it has an old stuffing box (rather than a dripless shaft seal) Id change it. Find and fix all the leaks. Dry it out as best you can, then keep an eye 9on where it accumulates first.
Tracking down leaks can be time time consuming task, but its worth it.
as above water should drain through the limber holes to the lowest point, where it can be pumped out. Those particular holes in the pics are kind of high above the bilge - not allowing complete drainage. Not ideal .
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Old 28-03-2017, 23:09   #6
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Re: Long terms effects of water on fiberglass...

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Originally Posted by Neptune's Gear View Post
Those holes are called Limber holes, and are supposed to be there. ..Those particular holes in the pics are kind of high above the bilge - not allowing complete drainage. Not ideal .

Would you suggest filing/cutting them a little lower to let the water drain?
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Old 28-03-2017, 23:30   #7
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Re: Long terms effects of water on fiberglass...

I wouldnt. Id fix the leaks, then it wont really matter! The floor grid is structural to the boat. Bringing the limber holes close to one edge of the structure might weaken it, and give it a tear point. Depends on its thickness, and whats on the inside of the grid - how its attached to the hull. I cant say from a pic. If you want to do that, consult a local naval architect or a boat builder experienced in this particular construction method.
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Old 29-03-2017, 07:19   #8
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Re: Long terms effects of water on fiberglass...

I'm on the other side of the fence on the dusty vs. wet bilge debate. On my 1996 Catalina 28 the shaft log, icebox, and shower all drain into the bilge. When I got the boat, all the windows and hatches leaked, and there was a really big leak just aft of the helm. I fixed all the leaks, and we don't use the so-called shower on the boat, but we still get a little water in the bilge from the shaft log and the icebox. Fine with me. Fiberglass doesn't dissolve in water.

You have a long list of things that should be addressed before you worry too much about a little water in your bilge. How old is your standing rigging? Any fish hooks? Is it tuned properly? How's your running rigging? Did you clean and grease all your winches? Adjust your engine's valves? How are your filters...air, and multiple fuel filters? Fresh impeller in raw water system? Shaft properly aligned? Did you choose the correct wire size for your bilge pump wiring and use proper crimping and heat shrink tubing for those critical connections? Are your batteries in proper containers, water topped off, and properly fused? Rudder bearings tight or sloppy? And, your cutlass bearing's fine, right? Mast sheaves inspected...original to the boat?

I'd put repacking your existing shaft log toward the top of the to-do list. I repacked mine when I got my boat three years ago, because it's age was unknown. Check out MaineSail's marinehowto.com for info on this. By the way, you would be well served to study and refer to his site often. Visit his "hall of fail". MaineSail gives excellent instruction on installing a dripless shaft log. It's no small job to do it right. I'm totally happy with my conventional shaft log, and used conventional flax in it. MaineSail discusses the newer stuffing materials, and you can decide whether you want to go with one of the modern materials that promise drip free operation (but have other potential big problems), or just go with flax.

Yes, those limber holes in your bilge are most likely factory drilled. The guy that drilled them may have been too lazy to make them a little lower. I'd go ahead and drill a half inch hole as far below them as possible. You are not going to impact the integrity of your hull liner by doing that. I'll wait right here for any qualified engineers or marine architects to correct me. If you decide to cut away a large section of liner elsewhere in your boat to add a hanging locker, that'll be a problem.

I have no plans to install a dripless shaft log on my boat, or reroute the icebox drain to an above the waterline through-hull. If I was buying a new boat, I'd expect those improvements, but adding them to my '96 isn't worth it to me. This Spring, I'm replacing all the hoses on my 20 year old diesel, replacing the iffy Sherwood raw water pump with an Oberdorfer pump, upgrading the air filter to a K&N filter, replacing the dodger, and the mainsail, and much more. That little bit of water in my bilge doesn't appear anywhere on my extensive list. My 20 year old boat looks like a 2 year old boat, and is likely in the top 5 percent in my marina in terms of maintenance. I do not endorse sloppy maintenance.

So, there you go...dusty vs. soggy. Any maintenance queries you make on this and similar sites will elicit responses from people with different but legitimate approaches to issues, and some that are just plain wrong. You'll sort it out.

P.S.
Your engine, judging by what I can see in your picture, likely sits above a fiberglass "pan" that collects any engine drips and contains them. It's likely that drips from your shaft log travel beneath the pan on their way to your bilge. You'll probably find no limber holes in the engine pan, as they'd be inappropriate. Obviously, keeping the pan nice and clean keeps you aware of any excessive oil or coolant coming from your engine.
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Old 29-03-2017, 08:42   #9
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Re: Long terms effects of water on fiberglass...

When your bilge pump stops, does the renaming water in the hose to the topsides leak back into the bilge. A check valve would stop this.
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Old 29-03-2017, 08:47   #10
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Re: Long terms effects of water on fiberglass...

Quote:
Originally Posted by TooCoys View Post
Would you suggest filing/cutting them a little lower to let the water drain?
That would be best. You shouldn't be needing to collect water except in your lowest bilge area in a perfect world. It certainly would be nice to get the accumulating water away from those keel bolts and have that area dry.
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Old 29-03-2017, 09:45   #11
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Re: Long terms effects of water on fiberglass...

TooCoys, I have the same model year as your boat although mine was constructed a bit earlier than yours according to your HIN query on another post. I have yet to step aboard my boat as I will be repatriating to the States in 15 days (onboard in a week after that).

With that being said, I have enough photos and videos of my boat from the PO and the surveyor to "almost" have a feel for the boat. None of my photos show limber holes in the bilge pockets. But that doesn't mean that later production models didn't have them.

The PO installed a bilge pump in the engine area that pumps into a 5-gallon plastic fuel container in case of engine oil leaks. Rainwater apparently has a tendency to get in there as well through the lazarette according to the surveyor.

I have seen photos from other H27 Cherubini owners who have made openings in their liners in order to determine if there is water between the liner and the hull, and this makes good sense from a safety and inspection perspective IMHO. The limber holes between you forward and aft bilge pockets is a waste as the salon's aft bilge pocket floorboard was originally screwed in place, so not meant to be opened on a regular basis. Limber holes to the forward bilge pocket should suffice as that is where your bilge pump is. That aft salon bilge pocket with its screwed down hatch would be a good place for long term storage for rarely used small maintenance items...until your keel bolts start leaking.

On the topic of bilges. My survey report states that according to ABYS standards, this boat should have the ability to pump out 4050 GPH!

Following your adventures TooCoys as part of preparing to get to my boat.
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Old 29-03-2017, 09:46   #12
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Re: Long terms effects of water on fiberglass...

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Originally Posted by Scaramanga F25 View Post
When your bilge pump stops, does the renaming water in the hose to the topsides leak back into the bilge. A check valve would stop this.
Bilge pumps should never have a check valve.
From Rule Literature, "Check valves are not recommended."
Why not? It decreases the flow. A good check valve decreases capacity by a pump size or two, and the effect increases. FAilure of the check valve can almost stop flow.
They will normally not hold absolutely tight, removing the benefit of the check valve, and will be the clog point. WORST problem, a check valve can cause the bilgepump to be airbound.

Water in a bilge? Normal. Dry Bilge? Normal. Is water any harm to a bilge? NO. It's a BOAT! If water hurts it, get a better boat.
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Old 29-03-2017, 10:24   #13
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Re: Long terms effects of water on fiberglass...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scaramanga F25 View Post
When your bilge pump stops, does the renaming water in the hose to the topsides leak back into the bilge. A check valve would stop this.
use check valve only if you plan on sinking your boat, as it WILL fail and no water will be removed from bilge, and as all happens at worst possible time.
are you ready with a bucket and a manual piston pump???? you may wish to buy one just in case your hose blocker does its blocking work best.
better your toesies in bilge water than mine.
happiness is a working fully automatic pump and clear hoses.
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Old 29-03-2017, 10:54   #14
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Re: Long terms effects of water on fiberglass...

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Originally Posted by Redpcx View Post
Bilge pumps should never have a check valve.
From Rule Literature, "Check valves are not recommended."
Why not? It decreases the flow. A good check valve decreases capacity by a pump size or two, and the effect increases. FAilure of the check valve can almost stop flow.
Except for the newer Rule pumps which come with a check valve.

A check valve is ok for the smaller maintenance pump installed at the lowest point of the bilge. The larger pump, mounted a bit higher, should not have a check valve for the reasons above.
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Old 29-03-2017, 12:01   #15
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Re: Long terms effects of water on fiberglass...

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Originally Posted by mitiempo View Post
Except for the newer Rule pumps which come with a check valve.



A check valve is ok for the smaller maintenance pump installed at the lowest point of the bilge. The larger pump, mounted a bit higher, should not have a check valve for the reasons above.


For small maintenance pumps I far prefer a jabsco diaphragm pump or similar mounted high and dry. This solves the standing water problem, the back flow problem, and the failure prone rule problem.
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