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Old 10-04-2011, 14:12   #1
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Long Distance Solo Sailing

Regarding the request that CF start a sub forum on singlehanding...

I think that to do so is akin to having a subforum on automobile street racing!

Single handing along the coast or island hopping short distances is fine. I was singlehanded in this respect for many years, on both of my first two boats. To do so "over night, for days", leaving no one at the helm for hours on end, is both illegal and irresponsible!

It is required that ALL vessels keep watch at all times. I don't want the entire responsibility of avoiding collision at sea on my shoulders, because the other vessel has no one on watch.

If CF will not take a stand on this irresponsible practice, PLEASE don't encourage it by setting up an entire sub forum on the dangerous & illegal practice...

If you would pass this on to the others that are considering this I would appreciate it, so would the other sailors that take their responsibility seriously. Singlehanding "with no one on watch", is illegal for good reason!

Thanks, M.
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Old 10-04-2011, 14:52   #2
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Re: Singlehanding Sub Forum Possible?

Quote:
Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
...
having no one on watch is not illegal either...
I want to see the judge's expression when you say that at your hearing.
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Old 10-04-2011, 15:16   #3
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pirate Re: Singlehanding Sub Forum Possible?

Quote:
Originally Posted by markpierce View Post
I want to see the judge's expression when you say that at your hearing.
ROLF....
Show me the legislation that states no watchkeeping is a criminal act...
Any collision at sea is dealt with in civil suits unless loss of life is involved..
But basically what your saying is you'd like it to be made illegal for someone to want to be alone...
Just another bunch of "Not in my Backyardies"...
if it don't fit your opinions/tastes etc it must be abolished...
If a singlehanders boat hits your well crewed boat out in the ocean while he's hove-to and asleep whose fault is it really...
The guy asleep or your incompetent watchkeeper playing with his Ipod/Gameboy whatever....
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Old 10-04-2011, 15:45   #4
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Re: Singlehanding Sub Forum Possible?

Quote:
Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
ROLF....
Show me the legislation that states no watchkeeping is a criminal act...
Any collision at sea is dealt with in civil suits unless loss of life is involved..
But basically what your saying is you'd like it to be made illegal for someone to want to be alone...
Just another bunch of "Not in my Backyardies"...
if it don't fit your opinions/tastes etc it must be abolished...
If a singlehanders boat hits your well crewed boat out in the ocean while he's hove-to and asleep whose fault is it really...
The guy asleep or your incompetent watchkeeper playing with his Ipod/Gameboy whatever....
You had said "not illegal" so you've introduced a red herring of "a criminal act." And you are making unsupported and incorrect conclusions about my attitude toward single-handed boating.

Check out the USCG's navigation rules:

http://www.uspowerboating.com/USCG_Navigation_Rules.pdf

Note partcularly Part B, Section 1, rule 5 -- look-out. The rules for provide for civil penalties of up to $5,000 per instance and possible vessel seizure.

Of course if someone dies because of your gross negligence (such as not maintaining look-out), you'd be a prime target for being accused/convicted of manslaughter.

But I will stand by a statement I made recently on another thread:
"It REALLY bugs me when people operate their boats as if they are the only ones there."
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Old 10-04-2011, 15:50   #5
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Re: Singlehanding Sub Forum Possible?

In my 20s... I had my first boat run down and totaled. The irresponsible idiot at the helm offered NO insurance $ or restitution from his hospital bed. I had a good legal case, but he had nothing! Having no insurance myself, I left Key West, only to return... living in my $700 van and working out of boatyards for years to make money for my next boat.

The boat they wrecked had taken me 3 years to build, and it would now take 8 more years of living in a barn while building my next boat, for me to get "out there" again.

Being that it was a clear day, around noon, and my first boat had been at anchor in the middle of an anchorage at the time, one would say that the odds were very remote. Guess what...

Irresponsible behavior of any kind is NOT "**** happens", It is "MAKING **** happen".

Radar alarms are great at alerting one to the approach of a huge ship, but NOT at all a small wood boat, hidden in 10' waves, in the middle of the night.

I have had VERY close calls on over a dozen occasions when a small boat crossed my bow or went past with NO ONE at the helm. On the Bahama Banks I have seen one per hour or two... Sport fishermen going by @ 25 knots with no one at the helm. It is utterly irresponsible. To say that the odds are a million to one is absurd! I Know people personally who have collided with a shrimper, when they went below for just 5 minutes in a white out rain. They had radar, and the shrimper did not show up amongst the "clutter".

The odds of a collision with BOTH skippers on watch is certainly still very real. I have been within 100' before seeing another small boat at night myself, and that was WITH me keeping a careful watch. The fatigue, the motion, and poor visibility make it so. With one of the boat's skippers asleep, the risk goes up exponentially. This is a "no brainer".

It most certainly is illegal! The No.1 Maritime Law is: A vessel must maintain watch AT ALL TIMES! It is true that unless there is a collision, the law is usually not enforced, but if there is a collision, you can believe it is enforced.

It is a shame that we live in a world where we have to have laws to get people to use common sense.. Like: When your vessel is under way, keep a watch at all times.

M.
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Old 10-04-2011, 15:51   #6
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pirate Re: Singlehanding Sub Forum Possible?

Quote:
Originally Posted by markpierce View Post
But I will stand by a statement I made recently on another thread:
"It REALLY bugs me when people operate their boats as if they are the only ones there."
And I stand shoulder to shoulder with you on that statement...
they're bludi dangerous...
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Old 10-04-2011, 16:06   #7
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Re: Singlehanding Sub Forum Possible?

legality of sailing single-handed over long distances. The International Maritime Organization navigation rules require that "Every vessel shall at all times maintain a proper look-out by sight and hearing as well as by all available means appropriate in the prevailing circumstances and conditions so as to make a full appraisal of the situation and of the risk of collision."[20] Single-handed sailors can only keep a sporadic lookout, due to the need to sleep, tend to navigation, etc., raising the possibility of a collision with an unseen vessel.[21]

It is easy to look up... M.
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Old 10-04-2011, 16:11   #8
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pirate Re: Singlehanding Sub Forum Possible?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Johnson View Post
In my 20s... I had my first boat run down and totaled. The irresponsible idiot at the helm offered NO insurance $ or restitution from his hospital bed. I had a good legal case, but he had nothing! Having no insurance myself, I left Key West, only to return... living in my $700 van and working out of boatyards for years to make money for my next boat.

The boat they wrecked had taken me 3 years to build, and it would now take 8 more years of living in a barn while building my next boat, for me to get "out there" again.

Being that it was a clear day, around noon, and my first boat had been at anchor in the middle of an anchorage at the time, one would say that the odds were very remote. Guess what...

Irresponsible behavior of any kind is NOT "**** happens", It is "MAKING **** happen".

Radar alarms are great at alerting one to the approach of a huge ship, but NOT at all a small wood boat, hidden in 10' waves, in the middle of the night.

I have had VERY close calls on over a dozen occasions when a small boat crossed my bow or went past with NO ONE at the helm. On the Bahama Banks I have seen one per hour or two... Sport fishermen going by @ 25 knots with no one at the helm. It is utterly irresponsible. To say that the odds are a million to one is absurd! I Know people personally who have collided with a shrimper, when they went below for just 5 minutes in a white out rain. They had radar, and the shrimper did not show up amongst the "clutter".

The odds of a collision with BOTH skippers on watch is certainly still very real. I have been within 100' before seeing another small boat at night myself, and that was WITH me keeping a careful watch. The fatigue, the motion, and poor visibility make it so. With one of the boat's skippers asleep, the risk goes up exponentially. This is a "no brainer".

It most certainly is illegal! The No.1 Maritime Law is: A vessel must maintain watch AT ALL TIMES! It is true that unless there is a collision, the law is usually not enforced, but if there is a collision, you can believe it is enforced.

It is a shame that we live in a world where we have to have laws to get people to use common sense.. Like: When your vessel is under way, keep a watch at all times.

M.
So basically you were two guys doing the same thing... being irresponsible... and your still a little bitter about it... Opps... nearly said it....
And the 'Rules' are recommendations not laws...
A collision at sea results only when 'Both Parties' are acting irresponsibly by not keeping a proper watch...
If I'm hove to with the proper lights etc I am not acting illegally or irresponsibly...
the guy who ploughs into me with a crew of four is...
Your serve.....
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Old 10-04-2011, 16:21   #9
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Re: Singlehanding Sub Forum Possible?

Quote:
Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
A collision at sea results only when 'Both Parties' are acting irresponsibly by not keeping a proper watch...
But he was anchored. Hopefully, he was displaying the proper day shape or light, if/as required.
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Old 10-04-2011, 16:32   #10
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pirate Re: Singlehanding Sub Forum Possible?

Quote:
Originally Posted by markpierce View Post
But he was anchored. Hopefully, he was displaying the proper day shape or light, if/as required.
Damn short term memory loss... I'd forgotten that by the time I got to the end of the post...
But was that down to the guy being solo... or just incompetent... solo or crewed.
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Old 10-04-2011, 16:42   #11
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Re: Singlehanding Sub Forum Possible?

I thought that I would take this moment to compliment you guys on an even handed, civil discourse, despite the passionate nature of the opinions held by the conversants!

I'm so proud ; -)
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Old 10-04-2011, 16:42   #12
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Re: Singlehanding Sub Forum Possible?

Quote:
Originally Posted by markpierce View Post
But he was anchored. Hopefully, he was displaying the proper day shape or light, if/as required.
My boat was anchored in a "designated anchorage", I was on shore. He was going 100 mph in a 16' speed boat with a 175 HP motor, while drunk & tripping!

Maritime law is just that. it is not just a good idea, it's international law...

Boatman, If you sail really really close past the "coasties" of almost any country, and the boat is on "auto pilot" with NO ONE on watch and you, "the skipper", are sound asleep below, do you think that they will A..."let it slide"? OR B... "give you a BIG fine"?

It takes BOTH parties to avoid a collision... at night, with small tricolor lights bobbing around, in huge seas & bad visibility. If both are watching, and one can't see the other for the above reasons, there is another person on watch who might just avoid the collision. It's common sense that "looking where yer goin" is safer than sleepin under way with no one at the helm...

M.
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Old 10-04-2011, 16:56   #13
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Re: Singlehanding Sub Forum Possible?

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My boat was anchored in a "designated anchorage", I was on shore. He was going 100 mph in a 16' speed boat with a 175 HP motor, while drunk & tripping!
Well, "at least" he was at the helm? Perhaps your unfortunate incident was a competency/mental-capacity issue rather than a single-handed one. Or maybe there should have been a "grown-up" onboard.
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Old 10-04-2011, 17:38   #14
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Re: Singlehanding Sub Forum Possible?

Quote:
Originally Posted by markpierce View Post
My boat was anchored in a "designated anchorage", I was on shore. He was going 100 mph in a 16' speed boat with a 175 HP motor, while drunk & tripping!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Johnson View Post
Well, "at least" he was at the helm? Perhaps your unfortunate incident was a competency/mental-capacity issue rather than a single-handed one. Or maybe there should have been a "grown-up" onboard.
Of coarse my point wasn't that my boat was wrecked by this guy single handing, but it was wrecked by utterly irresponsible behavior on his part. In truth... while drunk & tripping, he could still avoid another boat better than a mindless autopilot would, if he had been sleeping it off with no one at the wheel.

Personally, I am opposed to ALL forms of irresponsible behavior that "some" people do, putting others lives at risk. I live in pain every day from injuries that I incurred, due to others such behavior.

If two people are maintaining watch on their respective boats, and due to sea sickness, or poor visability they collide anyway... that's "**** happens". Can't do anything about that. It's just "life".

If one is sound asleep and on autopilot, and they collide, in spite of the best efforts of the one boat that did stand watch, that is "making **** happen" on the part of the person underway and asleep at the same time.

Ones ability to see a small light at night on a moving boat, from another moving boat, while disoriented, tired, and a little queezy, is quite limited.

If the skippers of BOTH boats are on watch, the odds of a collision are greatly minimized. This is why it is required by law & common sense as well.

M.
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Old 10-04-2011, 17:52   #15
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Re: Singlehanding Sub Forum Possible?

Why all this legal / illegal BS?

If they (and who are they anyway?) change the laws one day, then it will be suddenly OK?

Safe / unsafe is one thing, but please talk legal / illegal to the likes of James and Desjoyeaux.

Legal - illegal - humbug.

b.
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