Life Raft for Coastal...Yes or No?

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by TrentePieds

Hi Dockhead :-)

I always enjoy being corrected by you ;-0)! Nevertheless, I am disappointed that you failed to note that I was talking about the SOURCE - meaning INITIAL source - of an onboard fire, so I'm sticking to my guns :-0).

You are obviously right that there is hardly anything aboard a yacht that is not fuel - at some temperature. But in MOST yachts the only thing that can generate a temperature high enuff to flash curtains, pillows, cushions and other furniture, let alone structural parts, is an open flame fed initially by pressurized propane. We don't count Zippo lighters and fluids spilled from them. But we DO count "firelighters" used to light the propane stove. :-)

Even I don't leave open flame unattended aboard ship. If I desperately need a whizz, I turn the stove off for the duration.

Like I said: Harken to Baden-Powell. Have a plan for extinguishing EVERY KIND OF THING that might catch fire. Bei mir, it really just takes normal vigilance and situational awareness.

Cheers


TP

I've seen a boat burn to the waterline in 5 minutes from an electrical fire with no propane involved, following which it promptly sank, and I'm sure others will chime in with similar stories.

YES, of course, you are right about thinking through all possible scenarios and being ready for them to the extent possible. This approach will get you out of a lot of pickles. But with fire, as with so many other things, it is important not to make the mistake of thinking that such measures eliminate every risk!

Just see the story above about the guy in the Hatteras 55. Some flooding emergencies, just like some fires, simply cannot be solved no matter how well prepared you are. A boat can burn in 5 minutes or sink in 2 minutes, with the right kind of disaster. God forbid of course. If Plan "A" is to get the fire out, by being exceptionally well prepared and equipped, and a very good plan that is, too, you still need some kind of Plan "B", recognizing that some fires are simply beyond any fighting.

[TrentePieds]

So I'm standing in the hatchway of a Cal 20 giving my canned schpiel before leaving the dock for the first lesson on the water. There are four lubbers in the cockpit. One chap pulls a pack of smokes out of his breast pocket in the manner men used to have five and forty years ago. "Please, Sir", sez I, "we prefer that you don't smoke during lessons". He tucks the pack away. Five minutes late,r out it comes again. "Sir", sez I a little more sternly, "you CANNOT SMOKE during lessons!". He tucks the pack away. Five minutes later, out it comes again. I'm getting cranky. "Sir!", sez I, "You are sitting atop a five gallon gas tank! If you MUST smoke, please go back to the Offi…."

KABOOM!

200 yards down the harbor by the dock of the finest hotel in town, a powerboat blows up. Everything above the waterline went. Two people dead, it transpired. Couldn't have organized a better lesson on the dangers of fire and explosion if I had tried!



So back to my initial, if subtle point: Don't give this sorta stuff a chance to start! You'll remember the old airman's adage: "It's ALWAYS pilot error" (meaning that the man in charge failed to foresee something). Just so with thee and me. I'm sure that, like I, you "go rounds" fairly frequently. Now, in a five-tonner, going rounds is really not very taxing. So preventing bad stuff from happening is not really very onerous.

I find it difficult to imagine, even, that a dead short in the high ampage circuits should start a fire that would be "fully involved", as firefighters say, before you have a chance to sense it and put it out, provided your circuits are properly installed and maintained and you are properly vigilant, i.e. there has been no "pilot error".

Obviously it is impossible to eliminate all risks. Nevertheless, if nastiness happens in your boat or mine, it'll be the consequence of "pilot error", won't it :-)?

All the best

TP

[Sailmonkey]

Our vote is/was no. I approach the life raft need in this way.
Our first cruise was western Caribbean/gulf of Mexico. These are waters that are heavily trafficked, so the likelihood of needing to spend much time in a dinghy is quite low.
Our next cruise will likely involve a pacific crossing away from normal shipping lanes. This will more than likely mean much greater time in the escape pod if required. Therefore we’ll have one for this scenario.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by TrentePieds

. . .Obviously it is impossible to eliminate all risks. Nevertheless, if nastiness happens in your boat or mine, it'll be the consequence of "pilot error", won't it :-)?

Well, I think it's certainly a good attitude to have, to take ownership of these risks and do your best to eliminate them.

I suppose in most cases of electrical fire there is some kind of "pilot error", but are you sure it will be yours? Did you do all the electrical work on your boat? Did you build her?

I know a case where a boat burned very rapidly because of a short inside a starter motor -- the "pilot" was in a Chinese factory somewhere. This caused a dead short all the way to the batteries (boat had a single bank), and the positive cable became a flaming fire starter which inflamed half the length of the boat in the twinkle of an eye. That was the end of that boat in a couple of minutes.

This is just one example of the different possible scenarios. I do really think it's a mistake to think that you can master every one of them.

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Well, I think it's certainly a good attitude to have, to take ownership of these risks and do your best to eliminate them.

I suppose in most cases of electrical fire there is some kind of "pilot error", but are you sure it will be yours? Did you do all the electrical work on your boat? Did you build her?

I know a case where a boat burned very rapidly because of a short inside a starter motor -- the "pilot" was in a Chinese factory somewhere. This caused a dead short all the way to the batteries (boat had a single bank), and the positive cable became a flaming fire starter which inflamed half the length of the boat in the twinkle of an eye. That was the end of that boat in a couple of minutes.

This is just one example of the different possible scenarios. I do really think it's a mistake to think that you can master every one of them.

What, no fuse... no engine fire suppression system? I've had a starter motor fire four years ago aboard our 53, which didn't end in disaster. Saw the smoke, cut the engine, sailed back in after quite the fiasco due to a drunken crew member.

Never once did I regret not triggering or feeling the need to launch the life raft. There must have been more to your story for the fire to become that intense including incompetence.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

What, no fuse... no engine fire suppression system? I've had a starter motor fire four years ago aboard our 53, which didn't end in disaster. Saw the smoke, cut the engine, sailed back in after quite the fiasco due to a drunken crew member.

Never once did I regret not triggering or feeling the need to launch the life raft. There must have been more to your story for the fire to become that intense including incompetence.

The fire was not in an engine room -- as I wrote, it inflamed the whole boat from the engine space (no engine room) to the battery boxes, half the length. The entire salon sole was in flames in a second.

Few boats have fuses between the starter and the battery -- does yours? This boat unfortunately had only one battery bank so all of the batteries were pouring current through the shorted cable.

No life raft was involved in this story -- it happened at a dock, and the owner just jumped off.

The point of the story is just to show that not every fire is preventable or controllable, just like not every sinking is. "It can't happen to me because I'm so skillful/I have such a good boat/I'm so careful etc." is a very bad attitude for a sailor, in my opinion -- it's a failure to recognize the complexity of what can happen at sea; a failure to understand the limits of our own awesomeness.

[Chas.7]

Hello,
I would have a survival suit. If you can afford both get the raft too. North of Massachusetts the water is very cold. I doubt anyone would last 2 hours in the water with a PDF. In Eastport, Maine the late summer ocean temperature is about 52* F. If you go in the water you will be incapacitated in 15 minutes or less.
This is very dangerous,
Good luck

[Chas.7]

Hello,
That should be PFD
Good luck

[deluxe68]

What are the most people that will be on the boat? If you rely soley on a dinghy for coastal then you may need dry suits for everyone. If there are small children on board then someone may have to dress them. It is difficult to know what to have on board to cover every situation. I like the idea some have posted about having a dinghy and life raft on board. Personally I would not carry a dinghy on a davits over open ocean, so it would have to be light enough to toss over the side. There was one recommended plastic tub mentioned in the other thread that is stable and unsinkeable. That sounds like a good alternative to have on board but I can not imagine more than two survivors in it. Regarding life rafts, Switlik now has 5 year service intervals as most of the perishable stuff is kept in a separate ditch bag. They have ballasts to help keep them from from flipping and two-layer floors that drain off small amounts of water.

If you are ever in Newport RI the guys at LRSE really know their stuff. They may even be able to tell you the pros/cons of using a dinghy for short/long term survival. I think they have training sessions so you can practise getting into a raft in the water.

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by Chas.7

Hello,
I would have a survival suit. If you can afford both get the raft too. North of Massachusetts the water is very cold. I doubt anyone would last 2 hours in the water with a PDF. In Eastport, Maine the late summer ocean temperature is about 52* F. If you go in the water you will be incapacitated in 15 minutes or less.
This is very dangerous,
Good luck

Which is the reason why we’d climb into our dinghy wearing survival suits or in my case a dry suit.

[davil]

[QUOTE=Kenomac;2666771]Many of you are probably familiar with my life raft discussion for our previously planned Atlantic crossing. http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...no-202684.html

Now plans have changed due to a late start and Mrs Mac’s vacation schedule, so we’re now heading up to Nova Scotia and Newfoundland for a few months and the Atlantic crossing will need to wait until May 2019 or 2020.
===========================================
I believe the answer is on your own experience
We anticipate every possible scenario and yet,there you go.
First safety item I just purchased for my "planning cruising" "starting in couple of months" was a life raft,to be completed by all available "planning emergencies items".
Is like carrying these supply of spare parts,almost guaranties those are more likely the parts will not need.
But nevertheless I try to prevent,mitigate all unwanted emergencies.
Again that is why I purchased the life raft.
For a couple of thousand dollars checked another box.
And I truly hope never have to find if will inflate or not!!
Then,not sure about what "coastal cruising" means, a daylight sailing from Santa Barbara to Ventura withing site of the coast and warm water,more likely not,a run from Santa Barbara to Catalina at night,might consider it,chances of unpredictable
increase and prefer to wait inside the life raft than bobbling on a dinghy
But that is me.
Incidentally,Nova Scotia is my "planned" travel,and do not feel I can "plan to be rescued" before cold and hypothermia, etc.
Hate to think about my memorial been "he planned everything"but could not help himself and change his views on buying a $ 2000.00 life raft"
When he was finally found the reports indicate "he was kind of bluish looking and very stiff"
Each one its own,I guess.

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by deluxe68

What are the most people that will be on the boat? If you rely soley on a dinghy for coastal then you may need dry suits for everyone. If there are small children on board then someone may have to dress them. It is difficult to know what to have on board to cover every situation. I like the idea some have posted about having a dinghy and life raft on board. Personally I would not carry a dinghy on a davits over open ocean, so it would have to be light enough to toss over the side. There was one recommended plastic tub mentioned in the other thread that is stable and unsinkeable. That sounds like a good alternative to have on board but I can not imagine more than two survivors in it. Regarding life rafts, Switlik now has 5 year service intervals as most of the perishable stuff is kept in a separate ditch bag. They have ballasts to help keep them from from flipping and two-layer floors that drain off small amounts of water.

If you are ever in Newport RI the guys at LRSE really know their stuff. They may even be able to tell you the pros/cons of using a dinghy for short/long term survival. I think they have training sessions so you can practise getting into a raft in the water.

That’s good to know. What’s “LRSE”?

[BlueSlue]

Kenomac, if you have both money and space for a liferaft, what reason would you have for not carrying one? Maybe the answer to this question would help you decide. If you have to choose between the liferaft and other equipment, then go with what you are more likely to have use for like a dinghy or whatnot.



Also, is it feasible to rent one for the duration of this coastal trip? I have done that for an overnight coastal race where conditions were expected to be rougher than usual. It was relatively cheap to rent one for a week and then return it with no worries about long term storage or maintenance. It wasn't strictly required, but it gave me peace of mind knowing that I had made every effort to provide for my crew's safety on that trip.



And as an aside, I also carry a dan buoy aboard. Turns out that a guy (an experienced sailor) on another boat went overboard on that same race, breaking a collar bone and dislocating his shoulder. They tossed him a dan buoy and it probably saved his life. It would have been very difficult to find him in those big seas at night without it and it gave him something to keep himself afloat. It's a piece of equipment I always have aboard.

[TeddyDiver]

Originally Posted by KadeyKrogen38

Two thoughts. A dingy is not a life raft!....

Just a reminder, some RIBs are used to save people who rely on liferafts https://www.google.fi/search?q=RIB+l...w=1494&bih=710

Teddy

[Fore and Aft]

Kenomac stop trolling and just buy the liferaft! I see you own two Oyster yachts so money is not the issue. Maybe you just want someone to blame after you have drowned a crew member?
I have a home built plywood yacht and have a liferaft onboard, along with every over piece of safety gear including wetsuits with built in PFDs
Mainly because we have two young kids onboard. Also our coastguard is a volunteer organisation here in Queensland so who knows how long a rescue might take?
I might be chicken but after years of working on trawlers of the NZ coast I know how quick the sh*t can hit the fan.
Cheers