Life Raft for Coastal...Yes or No?

[roland stockham]

Originally Posted by TrentePieds

Ken:

You ask specifically about the ABSOLUTE need for a liferaft when going coastal. So since I'm strictly coastal, let me give you my thoughts on that.

There are IMO only TWO reasons that you might wish to abandon ship in coastal waters: 1) Uncontrollable fire, and 2) an uncontrollable leak with which the pump(s) cannot cope. In all other circumstances you are better off staying aboard.

In consequence, thought, effort and expense spent on worrying about a life raft, and the necessity for it, are far better spent on ensuring that a fire cannot become uncontrollable and that in the event of a holing, you can control and stem the inflow at least to the extent that pump(s) can cope with any residual.

As for fire: In a diesel auxiliary yot, there is really only one source of fire that might become uncontrolable: The propane supply. The requirement for a solenoid valve shut-off deals with that. Whether YOU flick the switch by the galley, or the fire severs the wiring, the flow of fuel will stop. The mandated extinguishers will cope with fire in solids, provided they are mounted so you can get at them. DON'T expend your extinguishers until you have only fire in solids to deal with! A fat-fire in a pot on the stove is most expeditiously dealt with by putting a lid on the pot depriving the fire of oxygen. The possibility of a propane leak in the supply line twixt tank and stove is remote indeed if you are conscientious about your “walk-around”s.

As for being holed: In days of yore it was “received wisdom” that in small boats you'd run a sail in under the hull so it would be “sucked into” the hole and stem the flow of water. You obviously cannot stem the flow entirely by that means, but provided your bilge pump(s) is/are adequate you can stay ahead of the residual inflow. You obviously cannot make way while so “bandaged” but as long as you can run your engine and keep the pump(s) going, that doesn't matter WHEN YOU ARE COASTAL. “They” will come and get you.

So why would you get holed? Here, in the Salish, the great danger is deadheads – huge logs that have floated free of the ubiquitous log booms being tugged from landing to mill. Only a sharp look-out protects against those,

Here in the Salish Sea the CCG and its auxiliary the Royal Canadian Search and Rescue have high speed ribbies stationed at intervals so small that one of them can reach you within a hour. In addition, these waters crawl with ships and yots all monitoring Channel 16. If the chips are really down, a helicopter will be despatched from Patricia Bay near Victoria or from CFB Comox near Campbell River.

A couple of years ago I was alongside in West Vancouver when a Mayday came from a woman who was clearly terrified. She was in a high powered gas pot a couple of miles off Bowen Island, and had a fire in her engine room. Shaking though her voice was, she stuck STRICTLY to protocol and answered clearly and succinctly CG's questions and that traffic was, of course, heard by all. This was indeed a potential “abandon ship” situation, but yots close by not only took her off, but by the time the CG arrived – in something like 20 minutes out of Horseshoe Bay — the assisting yotties had put out the fire. Later in the day the boat was towed into my marina. She was a total constructive loss. Two be-jasis big gas-guzzlers afire just where the “liferaft” woulda been, if she'd had one!

The more I see, the more I think “life rafts" are beside the point in coastal waters. I don't carry one, and any money that might be allocated to one, qua life raft rather than tender, should in my opinion be spent of a drysuit! Even in the summer the water temperature six foot down in the middle of the Straits of Georgia is something like 48ºF, i.e, something like 8ºC. The life expectancy of a “normal” unprotected person is something like 40 minutes, and that is if the thermal shock of the first immersion doesn't drown him!

Think also about the fact that in the Salish you can never be more that 12 miles from shore, i.e. 2 hours at our speeds, 20 minutes at RCSAR speeds.

So in summary: No, IMO, a life raft is NOT an absolute necessity for going coatal. But harken to old Baden-Powell: “Be prepared!”

TP

The Salash sea is not coastal it is effectively 'inland' Yes I would have no problems sailing a dingy in that area without a life raft. Would you be happy to head up through Broughton sound and on to Hiada Gwai becoause that is similar to what the OP is proposing?

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by Dooglas

I'm with TrentePieds. I've done quite a bit of coastal cruising in OR, WA, and BC. An inflatable dinghy with small OB is the mainstay around here. The water is cold, of course, so the next step up is a couple of dry suits with individual locating gadgetry. They work, they are cost effective, and they don't require frequent expensive servicing. It is what most all the commercial people here rely on.

Already have this covered on our boat.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1CGfdNayaeo

[KadeyKrogen38]

Two thoughts. A dingy is not a life raft! If it is bad enough out that it comprises the main yacht and I have to climb up to a rubber boat it better be a damn good one not an inshore dingy

No one should head off shore with a dingy in davits especially in bad weather.

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by roland stockham

The Salash sea is not coastal it is effectively 'inland' Yes I would have no problems sailing a dingy in that area without a life raft. Would you be happy to head up through Broughton sound and on to Hiada Gwai becoause that is similar to what the OP is proposing?

Here’s a visual of the cruising area for this season.

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by KadeyKrogen38

Two thoughts. A dingy is not a life raft! If it is bad enough out that it comprises the main yacht and I have to climb up to a rubber boat it better be a damn good one not an inshore dingy

No one should head off shore with a dingy in davits especially in bad weather.

This thread is about coastal cruising. Would you climb into a life raft along a rocky shore? Personally... I’d prefer a dinghy with an outboard under those conditions. I’d want to get away from the shore rather than be crushed by the life raft crashing into the rocks.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by TrentePieds

. . . As for fire: In a diesel auxiliary yot, there is really only one source of fire that might become uncontrolable: The propane supply. The requirement for a solenoid valve shut-off deals with that.



Whether YOU flick the switch by the galley, or the fire severs the wiring, the flow of fuel will stop. The mandated extinguishers will cope with fire in solids, provided they are mounted so you can get at them. DON'T expend your extinguishers until you have only fire in solids to deal with! A fat-fire in a pot on the stove is most expeditiously dealt with by putting a lid on the pot depriving the fire of oxygen. The possibility of a propane leak in the supply line twixt tank and stove is remote indeed if you are conscientious about your “walk-around”s.

This is really entirely untrue, leading to wrong conclusions and a dangerous attitude about fire.

Almost everything inside your boat is fuel, including the hull itself. Non-propane fires on plastic boats can be horrendous, can spread with amazing speed, and can be completely uncontrollable in some cases. A propane solenoid is by no means any kind of magic bullet against an uncontrollable fire.

Originally Posted by TrentePieds

As for being holed: In days of yore it was “received wisdom” that in small boats you'd run a sail in under the hull so it would be “sucked into” the hole and stem the flow of water. You obviously cannot stem the flow entirely by that means, but provided your bilge pump(s) is/are adequate you can stay ahead of the residual inflow. You obviously cannot make way while so “bandaged” but as long as you can run your engine and keep the pump(s) going, that doesn't matter WHEN YOU ARE COASTAL. “They” will come and get you.. .

This technique is called "fothering" if I recall the word correctly, and it's great to know how to do it. I had a boat once with a specially made fothering sail, but a staysail or storm jib will do just fine in many cases.

It's a good suggestion, very much in the spirit of those of us who would fight like hell to keep our boats afloat, and I think many flooding emergencies can be brought under temporary control this way. I would not count on fothering to deal with all of them, however.

[oldjags]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

Very good points. We do have a dinghy and survival suits onboard, and I do have a drysuit. So the cold water issue has been addressed. Our intent is to also avoid foul weather and pick sheltered anchorages, an ability I’m now very good at doing.

Sounds like you have made up your mind not to have a liferaft, as you have effectively countered almost every presented argument for having one! And also have the self-confidence to sail without one.

I have one, if only for the reason that my wife would not have left shore without it. So it was a 'peace-of-mind' purchase. And I'll admit it made me more comfortable too, just knowing we had an additional alternative if the **** hit the fan.

And, like 99.99% of the people who buy life rafts, we never needed it. And the one time I was scared to death that we did need it, it was so rough that I doubt we could have successfully deployed it and gotten ourselves off the boat into it anyway.

Safety at sea is mostly an illusion, as there is nothing that will guarantee that nothing will happen, or that you are fully prepared to address whatever does. You have to have the perception of safety, or else you would never leave port.

So, if the idea of having a life raft makes you feel safer, then get one. If not, then don't bother.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

This thread is about coastal cruising. Would you climb into a life raft along a rocky shore? Personally... I’d prefer a dinghy with an outboard under those conditions. I’d want to get away from the shore rather than be crushed by the life raft crashing into the rocks.

I actually agree with this. There are some situations where a life raft, which can't be propelled or maneuvered, is the wrong choice for abandoning.

My plan for using my rafts in any case -- and it's in my boat safety manual -- is to launch the dinghy as well as the rafts, if there is time, and lash them together.

[IdoraKeeper]

It sort of looks like what is being sought here is that point of rational balance inherent in risk management. On inland waters such as Puget Sound or areas further north in the Salish Sea I do not carry the raft but always carry the survival suits. Any venturing out Juan de Fuca, to the outside world requires the raft...even though its more carp onboard. The dingy is always there if needed.

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by IdoraKeeper

It sort of looks like what is being sought here is that point of rational balance inherent in risk management. On inland waters such as Puget Sound or areas further north in the Salish Sea I do not carry the raft but always carry the survival suits. Any venturing out Juan de Fuca, to the outside world requires the raft...even though its more carp onboard. The dingy is always there if needed.

Excellent! My thoughts precisely, but will still probably 75% chance of me purchasing a dinghy tomorrow morning.

[Almost-There]

When I was younger I used to deliver a lot of sport fishing boats seasonally with a friend/captain. He always carried what he called the O Sh#$ bag on what ever boat we were running. Most of them were high end custom 50+ ft sport fishermen with the latest in everything so I always questioned lugging all that heavy gear.

That was until the time we actually needed it.

We were running outside from Ocean city MD to Cape May NJ in a 55 Hatteras Convertible that was supposed to be "fully equipped" . It had just about everything but a life raft but it did have a davit and dingy on deck.
Well to make a long story shorter we hit a submerged container that was conveniently painted dark blue. It tore a massive gash about 15ft long in the hull,ripped the port side cutlass bearing and shaft clear off and took on water faster than you can imagine.
By the time we essentially came too after being tossed around ( maybe 2 min max) the bilges were full. There was water in the forward cabins in the time it took me to climb down from the bridge. We lost electric that fast too and we weren't sure our calls made it out. I can honestly say that without that ditch bag I wouldn't be here today. Things happen so fast it's insane. We literally only had time to grab the ditch bag,deployed the raft and jumped in with the rest of the bag.

Luckily inside he had a epirb,radio, waters and protein bars because even though we where pretty close it took the CG hours to reach us. They sent a C130 from Elizabeth city NC within the first hour or so to make contact because they apparently had another SAR going on. When they made contact they decided to divert a boat at first. But right before the C-130 had to head back the weather was getting worse.It was then when they made the call to send the Helo to get us.

I used to think I was fine without a life raft but after that I won't go out of sight of land without one. Also just because you're not far from help it doesn't mean they'll be there ASAP. Its up to you to do everything possible to prolong your survival till they're able to get you. Granted if we were bobbing around in the water without any gear they'd have cut the other SAR search short to get us. But at what cost? and whose to say we'd still be alive?

The choice is yours but remember the Coast Guard regs for commercial vessels have been written in the blood of lives lost.

[nortonscove]

Originally Posted by Steadman Uhlich

How do you plan to sail from Nova Scotia to Newfoundland in “less than a day?”

Specifically, from where to where?

From Cape Breton to Port Aux Basque. Much less than a day. Can be done comfortably in daylight.

[TrentePieds]

@ Roland:

I defer to your far greater experience :-). But as it happens I was contemplating what I would do if I and TP were in Ken's shoes. I start with this: From Port Hardy to Skidegate is about 220NM twixt actual harbours (discounting sundry remote “hidey-holes” on the inside of Graham Island), whereas to cross from PEI to NF is about 120NM.

At this time of year, with sunset at about 2100 hrs in these latitudes and sunrise at about 0400, I would depart PEI at about 2000 and do the seven hours of darkness in Cabot Strait - with its shipping lanes - while I were still “fresh”. The remainder of the voyage, which in TP would be about 24 hours in total, I could then do in daylight.

THAT — this short duration — is what IMO makes the passage “coastal”. Snarly weather can be had, as you well know, in the Salish, let alone Queen Charlotte and Hecate Straits, as well as Cabot Strait, though more in winter than in summer. But it is rare that you are more than 2 hours from a hidey-hole in the Salish. In Cabot Strait, however, you are up to 10 hours from a hidey-hole, and commensurately far from shore based help.

Ken has been emphatic that he's gonna “pick his window”, and his boat is — what? 30 tons to my 5? And far better found. So I think we can justify calling his proposed passage “coastal” :-)

MyBeloved keeps begging for a trip to Haida Gwai, and I keep being evasive :-)! TP is NOT, in her present state, fit for that voyage, but that has nothing to do with whether we carry a life raft or not. I come back to the two fundamentals: 1) Put your effort into preventing and being able to control fire if it does happen. 2) Put your effort into preventing and being able to control flooding if it does happen. Weather only becomes relevant IN THIS RESPECT insofar as you need to render the boat proof against serious ingress of water through hatches and ports in the event of a knock-down or roll-over. It is due to deficiencies in precisely THAT department that TP in her present condition is not going north of Alert Bay ;-0)!


TP

[nortonscove]

Originally Posted by roland stockham

If sailing solo then this would be entirely up to you as you would only be risking your own life. If you sail with crew then you duty of care requires you to take all reasonable precautions to preserve life in the event of a foreseeable accident. I think it likely that both the coroner and you insurance would consider you negligent if an incident such as a fire led to loss of life because you did not carry normal lifesaving equipment.
I am also somewhat concerned that you may not properly understand the area you are heading for. I don't know Nova Scotia that well but it is high latitude with an artic current influence. I would expect survival times in water to be measured in mins and for people in an open dingy to be suffering hypothermia within an hour. Response times for Halifax SAR vary from 30min to 2hr depending on time and day of the week. That's the time to launch not the time for rescue. The coast is renown for fog which may make helicopter operations difficult at times. If you need a boat deployed from Halifax to the south end of Nova scotia thats 5hr event at 25kn and they have to find you. Even via helicopter it would be around 1hr. So best case expect to be picked up in about 3hr, worst case 3-4hr buy helicopter or at least 8hr by ship. Sea temp is typically under 50deg in mid summer + maybe 10-15degF windchill so effectively just above freezing. A fit young person in an open is likely to be in trouble within 2hrs. In a life raft with a canopy and insulated floor plus some good foulies that would extend to 24-48hrs. As everyone says - Your choice, the team will always try their best but would prefer you did to.

Just got back from an overnight and heard two pan pan and a mayday. All were seen to in short order and not by the coast guard but by other boaters. Here in Newfoundland there are probably 30000 fishermen and most will rush to the aid of anyone making an emergency transmission.

[TrentePieds]

Hi Dockhead :-)

I always enjoy being corrected by you ;-0)! Nevertheless, I am disappointed that you failed to note that I was talking about the SOURCE - meaning INITIAL source - of an onboard fire, so I'm sticking to my guns :-0).

You are obviously right that there is hardly anything aboard a yacht that is not fuel - at some temperature. But in MOST yachts the only thing that can generate a temperature high enuff to flash curtains, pillows, cushions and other furniture, let alone structural parts, is an open flame fed initially by pressurized propane. We don't count Zippo lighters and fluids spilled from them. But we DO count "firelighters" used to light the propane stove. :-)

Even I don't leave open flame unattended aboard ship. If I desperately need a whizz, I turn the stove off for the duration.

Like I said: Harken to Baden-Powell. Have a plan for extinguishing EVERY KIND OF THING that might catch fire. Bei mir, it really just takes normal vigilance and situational awareness.

Cheers


TP