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Old 15-06-2018, 11:59   #1
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Life Raft Discussion.... Yes or No?

On our Oyster 53 which is presently for sale in Italy.... We’ve always had an eight person Avon life raft which has never been used, and I now question the need to have one.

Three weeks from now, four of us will embark on a trans Atlantic sail across to Gibraltar with a stopover in the Azores on our new Oyster 62 which does not presently have a life raft, so I’d like to discuss if there is in fact an actual need to have one.

Here’s what we do have:

1. EPIRB
2. Sat phone
3. Survival suits and/or dry suit
4. Personal EPIRB
5. Brand new 11ft aluminum bottom PVC dinghy
6. Tethers and inflatable life vests
7. Multiple handheld waterproof VHF
8. Fully equipped ditch bag

The plan is to keep the dinghy inflated on the foredeck tied down or on the afterdeck tied down if the conditions were to become concerning. We also plan to use a professional weather routing service out of Boston to keep us in the good weather. The boat can easily crank out 200+ miles per day which should also help keep us in the good weather.

Is a life raft really a necessity? My thoughts are no it’s not... with my rational being that I’d always prefer to remain on the mothership until the need to climb UP onto the dinghy should occure, and that the dinghy is actually constructed well enough to have a 15hp motor attached and driven to speeds exceeding 20mph. So I’d much rather board a dinghy instead of the life raft anyway. Another issue... the dinghy is already inflated, whereas I’d need to count on an automatic inflation device working with the life raft.

I’d like to hear some forum feedback while I’m still trying to decide on whether or not to purchase another life raft that’ll most likely just get in the way over the next 15 years.
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Old 15-06-2018, 12:06   #2
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Re: Life Raft Discussion.... Yes or No?

If you can afford a beautiful boat like that - would you rather save the money if there's a fire onboard and everyone has to get off the boat in a hurry, or potentially live for another day to enjoy life.
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Old 15-06-2018, 12:11   #3
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Re: Life Raft Discussion.... Yes or No?

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Originally Posted by SV DestinyAscen View Post
If you can afford a beautiful boat like that - would you rather save the money if there's a fire onboard and everyone has to get off the boat in a hurry, or potentially live for another day to enjoy life.
We always have an inflated dinghy onboard which is easily deployed just by cutting a line, or in the Med our Highfield which is always hanging off the davits.

The life raft just seems redundant and poorly constrcted when compared to a RIB dinghy. It’s not like we’re going to have nothing... we’ll have the multi-purpose dinghy along with the survival suits and drysuits.
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Old 15-06-2018, 12:42   #4
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Re: Life Raft Discussion.... Yes or No?

I've struggled with this -- if you look at the US Coastguard statistics, only 2 people a year drown on boats from 30-40 feet. that's compared to 2 people a day who drown in bathtubs and hottubs.

But risk evaluation also has to take into consideration that *some outcomes* are just so terrible that the typical cost-benefit analysis should not apply l;ike When you really need a liferaft.

Dinghys can help but the whole point of a LRaft is to be "just in case". In storm your raft or dinghy could fly away like a kite.
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Old 15-06-2018, 12:54   #5
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Re: Life Raft Discussion.... Yes or No?

Would not want to find myself in the middle of nowhere (= far offshore) in an open dinghy.
No weather protection, can capsize, no sunshade, small fuel tank.

If you have a fire, loose the keel, sink, you rely on a very quick rescue due to Epirb. Which will probably not happen far offshore.

Don't see how speed of the dinghy helps you in the above situations either.
4 people adrift in an open dinghy. Wonder how long it takes you start killing each other.

Apart from that I'd feel I'd ought to have one even when it's just out of care for the safety of my crew.
Even on my cat I'd want one when going far offshore.

Currently I have none, but that because I can not afford one right now.
Still our new hard dinghy has at least a deck locker the size one person could crawl in and close watertight.
You seem in the position to easily afford a proper liferaft. So I feel you should not cut corners when it comes to safety.
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Old 15-06-2018, 13:07   #6
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Re: Life Raft Discussion.... Yes or No?

i would buy a second dinghy made of hypalon,and keep the rubbish pvc one as a spare.
on passage you could have them both inflated, one on the davits,and the other on the foredeck.
make sure all your fire extiguishers work and have a few extra!
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Old 15-06-2018, 13:20   #7
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Re: Life Raft Discussion.... Yes or No?

Great question Ken. We had our life raft wash away during our last passage (SS mounting cage broke a weld, straps loosened, and the canister deployed itself some time during the night and was lost) and are debating whether to replace it.

Assuming our catamaran will float even if flipped and/or holed, then the only reason we would need to abandon is due to fire. A grab bag (with all the usual SOLAS A gear including EPIRB and provisions) in the dinghy should suffice for that. If a storm and a fire, not so good. But for any other likely scenario a dinghy is enough.

A dinghy can be stocked to provide most of the protection of a life raft and whether that’s sufficient does depend on the part of the world you’re cruising. Atlantic is busy as and you’ll be picked up in a day or two; Patagonia you might drift past Easter Island and into the S Pacific before you are found. Though Bligh didn’t have much trouble crossing an ocean in an open boat.

We recently completed an Advanced Sea Survival course and the number one take away from that was to never leave your boat for the supposed refuge of a life raft unless your boat has sunk beneath you. Even in the controlled environment of a wave pool the life raft was an awful place and we had several people throw up and one wig out. A life raft is not a safe place - it is a last resort survival tool that can easily kill its users.

One hears of too many instances where people abandoned their boats and put themselves and their rescuers at risk, while their boats happily floated on. Of course, we’ve also got the instances of people surviving amazing ordeals in life rafts, but also open boats.

How many boats per year actually do sink in minutes? Life and death don’t lend themselves nicely statistical analysis, which as Ken points out for him leans towards don’t carry a life raft.
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Old 15-06-2018, 13:30   #8
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Re: Life Raft Discussion.... Yes or No?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
Is a life raft really a necessity? My thoughts are no it’s not... with my rational being that I’d always prefer to remain on the mothership until the need to climb UP onto the dinghy should occure, and that the dinghy is actually constructed well enough to have a 15hp motor attached and driven to speeds exceeding 20mph. So I’d much rather board a dinghy instead of the life raft anyway. Another issue... the dinghy is already inflated, whereas I’d need to count on an automatic inflation device working with the life raft.
My reasoning too. And to add it's allways been a priority on sea to have a "life boat" and a life raft being just a poor substitute. Thou many dinghies aren't real life boats but even a deasent one is a way better than any "raft"

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Old 15-06-2018, 13:38   #9
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Re: Life Raft Discussion.... Yes or No?

There’s an older long thread I started on the subject iif you want to cut the group agreement chase
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Old 15-06-2018, 13:47   #10
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Re: Life Raft Discussion.... Yes or No?

Kenomac,

This is one of those passionately argued issues here on CF. Some people feel very strongly about their positions.

Jim and I borrowed a liferaft for our journey to HI from SF back in '83. Since then, following a presentation by a purveyor of liferafts, in which he demonstrated their many failure modes, we have not had one. So, you could put us in the "save the ship" or "go down with the ship" category.

Over the years, the pro-life raft people have convinced me that others - like guests or crew - expect there to be a liferaft on your boat, and I suppose this could lead to being sued if they survived a negative incident.

For the first time, ever, we took on crew for an overnight passage. I felt compelled to inform all the crew candidates that we do not carry a liferaft. All highly experienced skippers in their own rights, none of them expressed any concern about the lack, even though there were two known flaws with the boat: inner forestay with a kink, so no use of staysail; and increased shaft friction.

Most of time, in our experience, nothing bad enough to sink the boat has happened. The dismasting had the potential, but we let the rig fall away, so the mast no longer bore on the hull in the waves.

However, asks the guys who've had to abandon ship, like BlueWaters2184, and the life raft saved their lives--twice! I'm sure they'd say the expense and hassle were worth it. And, had it been us, you might not even know, our voices would have been stilled forever.

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Old 15-06-2018, 14:03   #11
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Re: Life Raft Discussion.... Yes or No?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Franziska View Post
Would not want to find myself in the middle of nowhere (= far offshore) in an open dinghy.
No weather protection, can capsize, no sunshade, small fuel tank.

If you have a fire, loose the keel, sink, you rely on a very quick rescue due to Epirb. Which will probably not happen far offshore.

Don't see how speed of the dinghy helps you in the above situations either.
4 people adrift in an open dinghy. Wonder how long it takes you start killing each other.

Apart from that I'd feel I'd ought to have one even when it's just out of care for the safety of my crew.
Even on my cat I'd want one when going far offshore.

Currently I have none, but that because I can not afford one right now.
Still our new hard dinghy has at least a deck locker the size one person could crawl in and close watertight.
You seem in the position to easily afford a proper liferaft. So I feel you should not cut corners when it comes to safety.
This! After days in the sun you'll look like Atoll or Boaty.. On reflection if I messed up and lost an Oyster 62 I would prefer to go down with the ship.
Congrats by the way
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Old 15-06-2018, 14:16   #12
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Re: Life Raft Discussion.... Yes or No?

Ken, is this ocean crossing a one off? why not buy a US raft and sell it on arrival to those kitting up for the ARC in November. This is their forum:

https://www.worldcruising.com/forum/...aspx?ForumID=2
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Old 15-06-2018, 14:20   #13
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Re: Life Raft Discussion.... Yes or No?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Franziska View Post
Would not want to find myself in the middle of nowhere (= far offshore) in an open dinghy.
No weather protection, can capsize, no sunshade, small fuel tank.

If you have a fire, loose the keel, sink, you rely on a very quick rescue due to Epirb. Which will probably not happen far offshore.

Don't see how speed of the dinghy helps you in the above situations either.
4 people adrift in an open dinghy. Wonder how long it takes you start killing each other.

Apart from that I'd feel I'd ought to have one even when it's just out of care for the safety of my crew.
Even on my cat I'd want one when going far offshore.

Currently I have none, but that because I can not afford one right now.
Still our new hard dinghy has at least a deck locker the size one person could crawl in and close watertight.
You seem in the position to easily afford a proper liferaft. So I feel you should not cut corners when it comes to safety.
Would not want to find myself in the middle of nowhere (= far offshore) bagged in a life raft.
No weather protection to talk of, can capsize, no maneauvrability.

If you have a fire, loose the keel, sink, you rely on a very quick rescue due to Epirb. Which will probably not happen far offshore.

Don't see how uncontrollable floating plastic tubes helps you in the above situations either.
4 people adrift in a wet plastics. Wonder how long it takes you start killing each other...

And so on

And one can allways add more protection against the elements and capsize with a dinghy too, actually not much is needed to do to get same kind of protection as with a life raft.

BR Teddy
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Old 15-06-2018, 14:54   #14
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Re: Life Raft Discussion.... Yes or No?

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Ken, is this ocean crossing a one off? why not buy a US raft and sell it on arrival to those kitting up for the ARC in November. This is their forum:

https://www.worldcruising.com/forum/...aspx?ForumID=2
Good idea! But I’ve found prices much cheaper in the UK along with free shipping, so if I purchase one, it’ll be from the UK. A very nice four person raft can be had for around $1000-$1200 USD. Money isn’t so much the issue of this discussion, as much as the actual need when I have what I feel is a much better product available and already inflated.

Hoping to stir the discussion around this point. My RIB dinghy is built rugged enough to withstand speeds in excess of 20mph with the associated forces applied by a 15hp motor. Whereas.... the life raft just hopefully sits there after it.... hopefully self-inflates. Fingers crossed.
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Old 15-06-2018, 15:08   #15
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Re: Life Raft Discussion.... Yes or No?

Ken, I suggested a US raft because I think you have run out of time for a UK one. It would have to go air mail and the courier will have a fit when they realise a liferaft has flares and a co2 cylinder in it for a flight on an aircraft.

If you go the dinghy route then a really good grab bag and a couple of 20L water containers 3/4 full so they float will be high on your list and mounted for quick release.

Should be a good trip, YT video?
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