Legitimate Bluewater Question

[Kenomac]

I'd like to pose the following question that I believe is asked by many cruisers on this forum:

If I get caught out in a situation like the boat in Video "A" on our boat (place manufacturer name & model here)... will I end up looking like the boat in Video "B"? What can be done to prevent or minimize the possibility of it happening to me?

Video "A"

2 - 55 knots wind.avi - YouTube

Video "B"

Island Witch Jaxsonville Hunter 38 Sailboat storm with no Name New Smyrna Beach Florida 5-19-09 - YouTube

My wife and I spent two years researching sailboats before deciding on our present boat; I think may sailors on this forum do the same when choosing an appropriate vessel for their adventures. I don't wish to "stir the pot" with the thread becoming a "my boat is better than your boat" or "all boats are the same" kind of discussion. But rather, I'd like to have folks make suggestions on how any boat might be improved in order to weather the unexpected, or thoughts on how daysailors and coastal cruising boats will be OK for 95% of the time... even for world travel.

I'll start it out by suggesting from our experience, that a boat designed primarily for coastal cruising and entertaining like the many Beneteau Sense cruisers we see in the Med., would be just fine for a world tour. If weekend entertaining is what you'll be doing most of the time, buy the boat best for that purpose, then if you wish to cross and ocean... one can always have the boat shipped to a new coastal cruising ground. This solution would be much cheaper than outfitting a vessel for full time cruising.

Please be constructive and positive in your comments.

Ken

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

I'd like to pose the following question that I believe is asked by many cruisers on this forum:

If I get caught out in a situation like the boat in Video "A" on our boat (place manufacturer name & model here)... will I end up looking like the boat in Video "B"? What can be done to prevent or minimize the possibility of it happening to me?
Ken

Sailing Coastal don't sail close to the coast 'coz its pretty' unless you have perfect weather windows.. good sea room is the secret of not going aground..
Heave to or forereach on the most favourable tack to ride it out or gain time... running for shelter can often be your last mistake..
Its all down to forethought and planning..

[robert sailor]

I have to agree with others, running for cover in a gale and loosing your motor is and was a poor choice and not about the boat AND its made through fear and inexperience. Everyone who sails offshore always gets the most geared up when they are approaching land because that's where the real danger is.

[scuba0_1]

Why don't you answer you own question, take your boat in close to shore in strong storm pushing to beach shut off your engine and see if your boat goes or to sea on its own. Please post video.. thanks. Also post location and time I need some nice gear.

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by colemj

I question your motives here. You post a "good" video of a Oyster sailing offshore in stiff winds and make comparisons to a "bad" video of a Hunter who was motoring along a shallow coast when its motor died during an onshore coastal gale, causing it to be blown onto the beach.

In previous posts of yours, you go out of the way to denigrate Hunters (among others) and exalt Oysters. In fact, you spend a lot of time in these types of discussions.

I bet an Oyster motoring close to a shallow shoreline experiencing engine problems during a onshore gale would also end up in the same situation as video B, while a Hunter in open ocean in 2-55kt winds would be in the same situation as video A.

You have a nice boat. Why do you constantly seek validation from others?

Mark

'Just trying to have a thoughtful discussion. Please try to keep an open mind and be positive. The video in "A" and "B" could be any boats as presented in the question, theses are the videos I found doing a quick search. If it will please you, pretend the boat in video "A" is a Westsail 32 and Boat "B" is my O'Day 20.

[Lake-Effect]

I think it's still true that most boats are tougher than most crews, and it's the crew that will fail or throw in the towel before the boat. So the #1 accessory is competence - gained through education and experience, and of course, honest self knowledge as to your own limitations.

Part of the attraction of sailing, for me, is that one can stay entirely within a pleasant and quite safe, comfortable 'zone' year after year, or one can choose to push the boundaries, little by little, which entails a bit of risk, and some time spent considering and mitigating that risk. It's cool to find challenges that a middle-aged couple can still take on.

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by scuba0_1

Why don't you answer you own question, take your boat in close to shore in strong storm pushing to beach shut off your engine and see if your boat goes or to sea on its own. Please post video.. thanks. Also post location and time I need some nice gear.

We have had this happen to us allthough the weather wasn't as bad, the alternator belt pulley came loose and flew off while only 1/2 mile off the cliffs. Took an hour to repair while my wife sailed solo, drifting closer to shore. I would have dumped the anchor and 300ft of chain if we'd gotten much closer, but in our case we could have restarted the engine if it became necessary. Which brings up the topic of engine access: Stuff happens, and when it does... it's nice to be able to have access around the entire engine.

[estarzinger]

I don't know the story behind boat B . . .some of you seem to and suggest their motor stopped on (or running into) a lee shore. If that's the case, I guess a suggestion then might be to learn how to sail the boat in strong conditions. It is a sail boat.

Running into harbor is not necessarily the worst call in the world. But the engine can always quit, so an approach that anticipates that possibility (stay off until you can run/sail right in) is prudent . . .but sometimes it is not possible (depends on the shape of the harbor approaches). Finding a place where you can anchor, that has at least a little wave protection, is all you need (if you have acceptable ground tackle). A sailor should in most circumstances (except perhaps for thru a narrow channel dead upwind) be able to do this under sail (or bare poles).

Also, those Bimini's and solar panels are convenient in nice conditions, but they really cripple a boats ability to sail in strong conditions. They create huge windage.

Now, as to boat A . . . really not the best practice to be sailing in 50kts with a particularly furled jib . . .would be much better with a storm jib. And they seem to be in protected waters because the waves are not up . . . that video would be a different story with 5m breaking waves . . . really you don't want to be sailing a course with those on the beam (as they seem to be, although their steering/course seems to be less than stable and sometimes they are running). Either the helm is not very competent or the boat not well balanced.

[ctl411]

The conditions of boat "A" don't seem so bad. Open water, down wind, with the waves winnd speed over deck (apparent) would be a lot less than 55. Now if they don't have sea room to keep going until it dies down then the may have some trouble. Boats with sea room rarely have trouble unless the crew just gets tired or they push the boat too hard and break stuff.
Boat "B" no real info in the vid to judge. Only thing that can be guessed is that motor quit and they didn't know how to sail in rough conditions. Or conditions were so bad they couldn't get to windward. If the second is the case I would expect the sails to be out and tore up.
Oh and that boat can't be a Hunter its rudder is still on lol.

[ctl411]

Man I type slow. Estarzinger +1

[scuba0_1]

please don't start second guessing the reason why or how the boat got there the post asked if he took his boat and put it in the same conditions and place as the second boat what his boat and up on the shore.

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by estarzinger

Running into harbor is not necessarily the worst call in the world. But the engine can always quit, so an approach that anticipates that possibility (stay off until you can run/sail right in) is prudent . . .but sometimes it is not possible (depends on the shape of the harbor approaches). Finding a place where you can anchor, that has at least a little wave protection.

Who says it can't be done? I thought you might enjoy this video... awesome surfing and control. Enjoy!

Yacht in rough seas.mp4 - YouTube

[ctl411]

Originally Posted by scuba0_1

please don't start second guessing the reason why or how the boat got there the post asked if he took his boat and put it in the same conditions and place as the second boat what his boat and up on the shore.

OK yes he will, if he can't / won't sail and his engine dies on a leeshore.

[Krogensailor]

Interesting, I don't see any anchors of remnants of anchors. Chafed through lines hanging off the bow. The huge bimini can't help much, with the windows zipped tight. We got caught in a lot of wind in the Chesapeake years back, cascade of events, torn sail, stay sail sheet wrapped around the prop, 3 in the morning. I made certain I was not in the way of big boats coming by and dropped about 150 of anchor and chain. Fetched up off of Smith island in the morn, slept well. Straightened things out and continued on. It seems that at some point you know your doomed to be on the beach, drop everything you have, last ditch.

[colemj]

I looked up the boat "B" situation. It was an un-named storm that was not forecasted with winds hitting 60kts. The boat was motoring for an inlet and the motor quit outside it and it blew up on the beach before anything further could be done - although the lack of an anchor on the bow suggests he may have tried to deploy an anchor.

More than likely helmed by someone who was not considering himself or his boat "bluewater sailors", and was just caught by surprise and heading back to his dock. Yes, he may have been better prepared, or should have had more experience, or learned to "sail" his boat, yada yada… Monday morning quarterbacking, but the reality is that he was caught in a bad situation and not trying to sail in those conditions - just go home.

The fact that it was a Hunter has nothing at all to do with it. An Oyster 53 used as a daysailor/coastal sailor by a captain with similar experience and expectations in the same conditions would have ended up in the same predicament.

Likewise the video "A" crew on a Hunter in video "A"' conditions would have the same outcome.

I think my mind is more open than yours (I'm cruising on a production catamaran for chrissakes). Almost everything about your "thoughtful discussion" is about crew ability and not the boat - yet you seem intent on drawing a clear and distinct line between "proper" and "improper" boats for "bluewater". To validate your superior choice through others is my guess.

Mark