Legitimate Bluewater Question

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by neilpride

Look there is not a single low cost production boat with a cvj factory installed as far i know, flexible couplings maybe, flexible engine mounts ? lots, Yanmar is well know for excesive engine mounts flexing, a angle of heel is sometimes dificult to control in heavy seas, just try it, in the next 40 knts gale go ahead and visit the engine room with the engine running, most production boats and even custom boats in a hypothetical 360 roll got their engines wrecked , 300 pounds lag bolted to a engine bed upside down if you know what i mean , and about fuel tanks and filters, is a clasic, not all the people out there got their tanks clean ..

Yes Dave i try it before, i never use the engine if i can avoid it, in few rare occasions, in big seas to help the boat to point upwind if i need to take a another reef in the main, the engine noise make crew anxious and nervous in bad weather,if you are low in fuel you are burning the precious amount left to dock or reach the harbour , marina etc... with the risk of a engine quiting due air in the fuel system, tear and wear is horrible in engine mounts and shaft couplings prop shaft, so yes, many people use the main source of propulsion, the wind and their sails, enough to deal with the conditions , as i point before , if there is no other option, go ahead and start the engine...

Equating a roll over to storm sailing is a bit far fetched. most boats may have to rely on their engines, because few will have a mast anyway.

I ve run engines and seen engines run very successfully in well over 40kts mid atlantic gales in sailboats. No problems, so I have direct experience. They didn't fly of their mounts , they didn't strangle themselves etc.

Nor have I ever seen running an engine make the crew nervous, in fact the opposite , in newbie crews , often seem to think the engine is calming. ( cause we come from a mechanical society i think)

Ive been in several 90 degree knockdown and one with the mast submerged, the engine never budged ( yanmar , beneteau), The friggin batteries nearly killed the crew however.

No production boats rarely have CVJs , mainly because they don't need them , but many have flexible couplings and thats all thats needed ( and or course there is the now ubiquitous sail drives , how say you there?)


As to wear and tear, stuff and nonsense. no worst then usual.

f you are low in fuel you are burning the precious amount left to dock or reach the harbour

of course, you never use any system in situations like that, thats obvious mind you , entering a calm harbour under sail isn't difficult, !!

so yes, many people use the main source of propulsion, the wind and their sails, enough to deal with the conditions , as i point before , if there is no other option, go ahead and start the engine..

A good reliable engine should never be simply viewed as the "last " option, thats just sailing hubris. Always use every system to its potential to solve a problem. Do not relegate solutions merely through hubris, very dangerous, Ive seen it wreck boats.

not all the people out there got their tanks clean ..

Nor are people out there with properly maintained sails, standing and running rigging, inspected and maintained furling gear, so what , Darwin will find them. But theres no mystery to making an engine run reliably Kenomac has detailed it himself. Its not magic, no more then having reliable roller furling etc.

As I said if its not reliable , why have you it on board. if you have to have it ( for some use) then you have to factor in that it will be of little use just when you might want it.

Note, Im not saying that engines are useful in ALL storms, just in certain situations in certain boats in certain circumstances, learn your systems holistically

Dave

[Krogensailor]

No one has mentioned Sea anchors. If you have the room and crew exaustion is usually the main problem leading to disaters, stopping the boat with the bow to the wind, or foreaching would be a good way to gather your wits and strength. Geeting there on time can be fatal thinking. Also wanting to get out of the storm and sailing at all costs can overstress everything and everyone. Putting it in neutral may be the best option. What is the minimum amount of distance from a lee shore would you sea anchor? And this is on topic, how to not become case B

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Krogensailor

No one has mentioned Sea anchors. If you have the room and crew exaustion is usually the main problem leading to disaters, stopping the boat with the bow to the wind, or foreaching would be a good way to gather your wits and strength. Geeting there on time can be fatal thinking. Also wanting to get out of the storm and sailing at all costs can overstress everything and everyone. Putting it in neutral may be the best option. What is the minimum amount of distance from a lee shore would you sea anchor? And this is on topic, how to not become case B

This is true in theory, in practice deploying sea anchors is fraught with issues especially on modern cruisers. The reality is very different from the theory

Very few modern cruisers , in a survival storm, can be left unattended and its a major mistake to think so. Keep working the boat appropriate to the situation.

Dave

[ontherocks83]

Now what about jordan series drogues? Transom to the wind and no trimming like on a sea anchor. All the research I've done makes this look more desirable but obviously that's research and not real world application. Any people with experience on this that can chime in?

[Krogensailor]

"deploying sea anchors is fraught with issues especially on modern cruisers." When you say modern what is your def of modern? I have a heavy 84 cutter, wide beam 13' shallow draft 3' board up, 6.5' down. Is is what you mean by modern or are you referring to very modern fin keel hulls? It would seem that a boat like mine would be a candidate for lying a hull whereas a fin keel may be inviting disaster doing so

[Krogensailor]

Although lying a hull within 20 mile from a lee shore may not be such a good idea!

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by neilpride

Not really, im the one who put 3/4 of the Regis Guillemot fleet in martinique safe and sound, same for dream yacht charters, private deliverys is another matter, and most trips in winter with Mighty Biscay there waiting for us, with a 2 funy days weather window, yes we pull the pedal to the metal to reach La coruña before we got kicked in the ass by something horrible. All the delivery skippers i meet do the same , even in the Portuguese coast , and most charter companys dont even care if is blowing 35 to 40, he want the boat there because is booked for a charter party, i got a lots of discussions and arguing chats by iridium with some idiots looking the whole picture in a Caribbean charter office. No is not gross, is horrible...

Ahah... a Yachtmaster..
Mate.. your upper class with all that paper.. me..??
I'm just a bottom feeder with the minimum papers required by foreign states to sail the 7 sea's.. so rarely drop on the 'Plum Jobs'... mind things are looking up.. got another new Lagoon 380 La Rochelle to Almerimar next month... WheeeeeHeeeeeeeeeeeee

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by ontherocks83

Now what about jordan series drogues? Transom to the wind and no trimming like on a sea anchor. All the research I've done makes this look more desirable but obviously that's research and not real world application. Any people with experience on this that can chime in?

I'd say it puts a lot of strain on the rudder no matter how well you lash it.. but.. this is not the first time I could be wrong..
But personally.. I'd not subject a spade or skeg mounted rudder to that... heave to/fore reach or lay a-hull are my tactics to date.. and which technique I apply depends entirely on sea state..

[scotty c-m]

Situation B could happen to any of us. Hope it dosen't!! My thoughts: Always have sails ready to deploy. Motors crap out, often at the most disadvantagous times. Rough water shakes up tanks and stuff fouls the filters. B is obviously on a lee shore, therefore in this particular case heaving-to and drougs (nor drugs ) are not appropriate. If offshore, eithor would have advantages, depending on sea state. I also like to have the engine running if I'm in a difficult situation - depends on a lot of circumstances (amount of fuel, sea state etc.). I agree with a privious post(s) about keeping off shore until the dash for a harbor - or just keeping offshore. I love my engine (Yanmar 4JH4), but NEVER trust it near shore. Same with autopilots. This is not a boat design issue, it is a combination of maintenance, seamanship and fate.

[JPA Cate]

Go Boating Now, and everybody else,

First off, I have to say that I think you and the other guys who have said that one should keep flexible in one's approach to the weather one encounters are absolutely correct. However, I'd have to add that the people who think something like "I've got a big engine; it'll get me out of trouble," are also being naive--it may, but it also may not. Too many less than perfect decisions get made by too many of the "links" in the chain. And it's how life is. Some maintenance just doesn't come out as expected, and you don't know it till it has failed. In a motor yacht, if the engine fails, she doesn't have backup; the sailboat has her auxiliary.

I really think sails are the sailboat's primary method of propulsion: IME boats usually can sail faster than they motor. IMO, in winds over say, 45, the sailboat will be far more comfortable with some sail area up, she will be more stable, more comfortable for the crew, less tiring. [This may be different for the catamarans, I really wish they'd participate here too]. With the shorthanded sailing most cruisers do, less tiring is very important, because over 45, it's noisy, the motion is more vigorous so sleep is harder to come by, at the very same time one needs more rest to function effectively. It is in these conditions if you are going into it at all, that waves sweep the decks, and lines are liable to be swept into the water.

Now, for the idea of approaching harbor in a storm. It really depends on what you're approaching. Hidden outliers? Visibility? Is it a situation where there is no bar? How does the tidal flow interact with the sea swell as you go in? How about the sigma wave? If you are not on a schedule, you may feel safer (and rightly so!) to heave to on the offshore tack, and wait for conditions to be favorable for your approach. I think just bearing in mind that you may be better off at sea, even if the harbor's right there could be a really good mind set to have. I think it was Boatman who reported someone's demise following disrespecting the Port Captain's closing of a harbor in Portugal this year where the decedent attempted entry anyway. Sometimes people get away with that kind of decision--it's up to you to decide if you think it was a good one.

Whatever this is, it is not about machismo; it is (IMO) about the welfare of the vessel and its crew. So keeping one's options open and being flexible in one's approaches seems to hold the most promise of not winding up like boat B.

[Paul Elliott]

Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate

How about the sigma wave?

OK, I give up. What is the "sigma wave"? I might guess that this is some sort of wave reflection effect that occurs in harbors or around breakwaters / shorelines / etc, but I can't find a definition anywhere. I did find a nice technical discussion of wave resonance in harbors and the effectiveness of dissipator structures (http://digitalcommons.mcmaster.ca/cg...ndissertations), but the only mention of "sigma" was where it was used to denote wave angular velocity in an equation.

[estarzinger]

Originally Posted by Paul Elliott

OK, I give up. What is the "sigma wave"? .

I am guessing she meant a "2 sigma wave" . . . .eg an infrequent really big one . . . .al la the wave in the Low Speed Chase incident

[colemj]

Sigma as in standard deviation? Then a 2-sigma would be 95% of the wave heights distributed around the mean - outside that are the 5% larger/smaller ones (I assume we are only concerned about the larger side of that here).

Mark

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by robert sailor

What kind of vane do you have there?

It's a no-name vane..... fabricated in the fo'c'sle of a friend's fifty footer...

[estarzinger]

The 1 in 1000 waves are larger than 1.86x the significant wave height (which is the commonly reported wave height used by the met services). Significant waves are the average height of the highest 1/3 of waves.

1 in about 3,000 is 2x the significant height, which would be the "2 sigma" in this context - see the note at the bottom as (you are correct) that is not the normal statistical usage.

The 'for dummies' version is in appendix D of the Low Speed Chase Report. I can give you links to more comprehensive discussions if anyone is interested. I 'tech reviewed' appendix D . . . there are some flaws but it is generally a good basic discussion.

Low speed chase report

By the way, wave heights are NOT a normal distribution . . .they follow an approximation called the Rayleigh distribution. And the "sigma" used in this context is often/usually the significant wave height, rather than the statistical standard deviation of the normal distribution. (and that can be a bit confusing because the Rayleigh also obviously has a standard deviation).