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Old 29-12-2013, 05:58   #61
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Re: Legitimate Bluewater Question

What kind of vane do you have there?
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Old 29-12-2013, 05:59   #62
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Re: Legitimate Bluewater Question

Dave,
Offshore in a storm I have never used my engine...what are you doing with it that adds to safety??
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Old 29-12-2013, 09:04   #63
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Re: Legitimate Bluewater Question

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
I think you must look at modern boat systems as a whole, your engine and fuelling system should receive as much care and attention as your rigging. Hence you should deal with issues like filter clogging by sorting out the tanks. People get into trouble because they avoid difficult maintenance issues.

In today's boats both the engine and sails are " main means" of propulsion , the day of the tiny unreliable auxiliary is long gone.

There's absolutely no reason not to rely on your engine , no more then there is no reason not to rely on your in mast furler working. And if you can't rely on your systems , then remove them from the boat, cause their dead weight.

In modern yachts the engine can be a tremendous asset in a storm, combined with correct sail plans and technique.

We still treat mechanical systems on boats like we had 1920s technology.

I would comment m that by definition, seeking an anchorage on a lee shore is going to very unproductive( unless you particularly know its characteristics) . In my view approaching any " hard bit" should be avoided in heavy weather. The boat is safer at sea, even if its never seems that way. Once you approach the coast you narrow your options and increase the risk of a failure cascade. Most boats are lost cause they contact the hard bits. It can be a very fine line between success and failure in these circumstances

Dave


Our fuel and water tanks were emptied and scrubbed clean last winter. We caught the problem in time... lots of gross stuff at the bottom of the fuel tank. The bottom of the water tank was also covered with mineral sediments.

Thanks,

Ken
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Old 29-12-2013, 09:29   #64
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pirate Re: Legitimate Bluewater Question

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Our fuel and water tanks were emptied and scrubbed clean last winter. We caught the problem in time... lots of gross stuff at the bottom of the fuel tank. The bottom of the water tank was also covered with mineral sediments.

Thanks,

Ken
Well... having had so many engines go sour on me I now like to carry a spare 20litre can of clean fuel and a length of suitably sized hose and a squeeze bulb near one end... if anything goes wrong with the fuel supply its a lot quicker to whip of the supply pipe at the engine pump, connect the other hose and prime then restart the engine than fiddle and fart with filters on a closing lee shore... get mobile fast and repair at leisure...
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Old 29-12-2013, 09:44   #65
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Re: Legitimate Bluewater Question

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Dave,
Offshore in a storm I have never used my engine...what are you doing with it that adds to safety??

Delivery boats and before that crewing for delivery skippers, gives you a great insight into how different people and different boats handle issues. Its a unique experience thats difficult to get elsewhere, even if after a while you get very fed up of get hammered in out of season sailing.


IN very heavy weather, most modern canoe body boats will not heave to, with any degree of reliability so you are typically forced to adopt active techniques.

Ive talked about various techniques in running , elsewhere, but should you decide to go to weather into a storm , which can be useful , in that it transitions you through the storm quicker and points the strong end of the boat at things.

Hence forereaching under using say a scrap of main and sometime jib, using the engine is slow ahead( <1200 rpm) , gives you great control , especially in the lulls in the wave troughs and also on the wave crests when you tend to be over canvased. Its also useful where you might have roller furling headsails as it allows more pointing ability and drive when necessary. Like any technique it has its limits.

It also gives the rudder better bite , and often allows the use of an AP to give the crew a rest , which can be the biggest issue in heavy weather sailing. Trawlermen use it a lot. ( its called jogging) .


Im a great believer in not trying to find formulaic approaches to problems, I think many sailers want an kind of decision matrix with suitable gear to handle every situation. SO you get this if situation X deploy tactic Y with gear Z approach to sailing. This tends to generate these interminable departs about boat suitability, gear suitability and sailing dogma ( use sails in a storm, use Y in a storm etc) .

Funnily this is a feature of American thinking more then European as Ive found Americans like a structured approach to problem solving with little left to chance , ( Americans don't like ambiguity!! ), while Europeans , especially the French tend to focus on using whats available holistically without in advance having all the answers. Hence the endless focus of "suitable boats" and the dogma surrounding gear usage and tactics.

what deliveries teaches you , like a belt to the head, is that the boat and equipment is rarely the determining factor in getting from A to B. of course sometimes you are in the wrong place at the wrong time and **** happens ( like Stamm !!) , but boat selection and gear selection is not the due the importance its given say on CF. IMHO


Dave
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Old 29-12-2013, 10:01   #66
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Re: Legitimate Bluewater Question

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
Delivery boats and before that crewing for delivery skippers, gives you a great insight into how different people and different boats handle issues. Its a unique experience thats difficult to get elsewhere, even if after a while you get very fed up of get hammered in out of season sailing.


IN very heavy weather, most modern canoe body boats will not heave to, with any degree of reliability so you are typically forced to adopt active techniques.

Ive talked about various techniques in running , elsewhere, but should you decide to go to weather into a storm , which can be useful , in that it transitions you through the storm quicker and points the strong end of the boat at things.

Hence forereaching under using say a scrap of main and sometime jib, using the engine is slow ahead( <1200 rpm) , gives you great control , especially in the lulls in the wave troughs and also on the wave crests when you tend to be over canvased. Its also useful where you might have roller furling headsails as it allows more pointing ability and drive when necessary. Like any technique it has its limits.

It also gives the rudder better bite , and often allows the use of an AP to give the crew a rest , which can be the biggest issue in heavy weather sailing. Trawlermen use it a lot. ( its called jogging) .


Im a great believer in not trying to find formulaic approaches to problems, I think many sailers want an kind of decision matrix with suitable gear to handle every situation. SO you get this if situation X deploy tactic Y with gear Z approach to sailing. This tends to generate these interminable departs about boat suitability, gear suitability and sailing dogma ( use sails in a storm, use Y in a storm etc) .

Funnily this is a feature of American thinking more then European as Ive found Americans like a structured approach to problem solving with little left to chance , ( Americans don't like ambiguity!! ), while Europeans , especially the French tend to focus on using whats available holistically without in advance having all the answers. Hence the endless focus of "suitable boats" and the dogma surrounding gear usage and tactics.

what deliveries teaches you , like a belt to the head, is that the boat and equipment is rarely the determining factor in getting from A to B. of course sometimes you are in the wrong place at the wrong time and **** happens ( like Stamm !!) , but boat selection and gear selection is not the due the importance its given say on CF. IMHO


Dave

Most modern diesel engines are not designed to operate for long in a hig angle of heel, lets say 35 to 40, most production boats today got their Yanmars or Volvos lag bolted to the fiberglass engine beds, and most engines todays dont come with any kind of flexible coupling or Cvj, add the chance to get a fuel tank dirty and the chances to clog a filter are hig, now like a last resort option sure, but using the engine in a sailboat in heavy weather sounds to me a welcome for problems, most engine problems in storms with engines come from people in panic thinking than the Start key and the run run is the best option.
Engines in Trawlers or motorboats are diferent animals,...Just saying.
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Old 29-12-2013, 10:12   #67
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Re: Legitimate Bluewater Question

What do you do in boat B's situation on the beach? If you were there, could you do anything to minimize the loss? I would be tempted to do anything to get the boat further up on the beach. Could you kedge the boat up the beach. Could you hire a wrecker to wench the boat up the beach. Or am I just pissing into the wind? Most cases it seems that it ends there and the boat gets pounded to death.
I would also post guard on the boat or nothing will be left the next morning.
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Old 29-12-2013, 10:20   #68
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Re: Legitimate Bluewater Question

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Originally Posted by neilpride View Post
Most modern diesel engines are not designed to operate for long in a hig angle of heel, lets say 35 to 40, most production boats today got their Yanmars or Volvos lag bolted to the fiberglass engine beds, and most engines todays dont come with any kind of flexible coupling or Cvj, add the chance to get a fuel tank dirty and the chances to clog a filter are hig, now like a last resort option sure, but using the engine in a sailboat in heavy weather sounds to me a welcome for problems, most engine problems in storms with engines come from people in panic thinking than the Start key and the run run is the best option.
Engines in Trawlers or motorboats are diferent animals,...Just saying.
Actually look at the time a modern production yacht spends anywhere near 35 degrees of heel, almost never and its a very bad sail trim that does so, they sail better the more upright they are, Lubrication in a storm is never an issue with a properly installed engine.

Secondly I see many yachts with flexible couplings and some even with Halyard aqua drives.

If you cannot rely on your fuel quality and the state of your tanks, then you have no business having a diesel engine on board.

Filters block through poor maintenance, end of story.


running downwind , is in my mind is one the best options in a modern boat, so I don't know what you mean by " run run"

Furthermore, we need to leave behind the school boy attitude that " real sailors don't use engines, bowthrusters, GPS, roller furling etc etc , back to the dark ages) .

A boat is a collection of mechanical systems, its a machine, maintain it properly and all its systems can be relied on. if they can't remove them. I have no time for the " it aint broke so don't fix it mentality", I constantly see people ignoring systems issues ( like muck in the tanks) and then blaming unreliable diesel engines, or criticising roller furling yet , never have maintained or inspected the swivels and gear.


Ive seen sail boat engines take boats through several major storms as an aid the sails in certain cases. performed faultlessly for 3 days in one case. and I know one that took it through the storm on its engine alone.

Ive seen sail gear fail, Ive seen situations where sheaves jammed, sails couldn't be raised, no what , the trusty iron topsail did the job.

A modern sailboat is the sum of its systems, learn how to use them all effectively.

( and try it before you critique it)


Quote:
Engines in Trawlers or motorboats are diferent animals,...Just saying.
Ive delivered several powerboats, explain that statement , they are bigger yes , but not necessarily fundamentally different.

Dave
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Old 29-12-2013, 10:24   #69
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Re: Legitimate Bluewater Question

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Well... having had so many engines go sour on me I now like to carry a spare 20litre can of clean fuel and a length of suitably sized hose and a squeeze bulb near one end... if anything goes wrong with the fuel supply its a lot quicker to whip of the supply pipe at the engine pump, connect the other hose and prime then restart the engine than fiddle and fart with filters on a closing lee shore... get mobile fast and repair at leisure...
I hadn't thought of that? I presently only carry a small 5 liter jerry can filled with diesel stashed in the anchor locker; next season I'll fill one of the extra 20 liter cans on board... just in case. Althought the fuel I've been purchasing so far has been good quality in Southern Spain, I always run it through a filter before it goes into the main fuel tank.... takes longer, but we know for sure there's no crud being served up.

Ken
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Old 29-12-2013, 10:42   #70
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Re: Legitimate Bluewater Question

Look there is not a single low cost production boat with a cvj factory installed as far i know, flexible couplings maybe, flexible engine mounts ? lots, Yanmar is well know for excesive engine mounts flexing, a angle of heel is sometimes dificult to control in heavy seas, just try it, in the next 40 knts gale go ahead and visit the engine room with the engine running, most production boats and even custom boats in a hypothetical 360 roll got their engines wrecked , 300 pounds lag bolted to a engine bed upside down if you know what i mean , and about fuel tanks and filters, is a clasic, not all the people out there got their tanks clean ..

Yes Dave i try it before, i never use the engine if i can avoid it, in few rare occasions, in big seas to help the boat to point upwind if i need to take a another reef in the main, the engine noise make crew anxious and nervous in bad weather,if you are low in fuel you are burning the precious amount left to dock or reach the harbour , marina etc... with the risk of a engine quiting due air in the fuel system, tear and wear is horrible in engine mounts and shaft couplings prop shaft, so yes, many people use the main source of propulsion, the wind and their sails, enough to deal with the conditions , as i point before , if there is no other option, go ahead and start the engine...
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Old 29-12-2013, 10:43   #71
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Re: Legitimate Bluewater Question

Another question I'd like to direct towards the delivery captains, do you think that the reason you encounter engine problems and other issues on the vessels being delivered, is it because the boats have many times been through a period of neglect or delayed maintenance prior to purchase by a new owner? And then you're left standing there trying to sort out the issues prior to departure?

This sort of episode happened with our Oyster. The boat had sit on the hard for 5 years before we bought it; and even though it underwent what we thought to be a substantial refit by the Oyster yard, and engine service by a qualified mechanic... the second delivery crew burned up the turbo under low revvs, and the crud in the fuel and water tanks wasn't discovered until the boat was in Menorca 1200 miles away from the start. 'Seems like there's always something that gets missed, even after a complete inspection.

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Old 29-12-2013, 10:47   #72
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Re: Legitimate Bluewater Question

Delivery captains dont give a crap about using a engine or not, arrival schedule, pull the pedal to the metal, and be here at the contract date, weather permit, 50 knts or more. Another clasic...
I mean in most charter companys contracts, private deliverys is another history...
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Old 29-12-2013, 11:13   #73
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Re: Legitimate Bluewater Question

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What do you do in boat B's situation on the beach? If you were there, could you do anything to minimize the loss? I would be tempted to do anything to get the boat further up on the beach. Could you kedge the boat up the beach. Could you hire a wrecker to wench the boat up the beach. Or am I just pissing into the wind? Most cases it seems that it ends there and the boat gets pounded to death.
I would also post guard on the boat or nothing will be left the next morning.
RDW
I'd probably first attempt to post a guard, then contact the insurance company, and then look up a good "shrink".... for some anti-depressants.
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Old 29-12-2013, 11:13   #74
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pirate Re: Legitimate Bluewater Question

Delivery captains may well be given a schedule but we (I) don't like breaking boats in storms to meet a schedule... puts my life in danger..
Ken.. re your question.. I don't know about high end boats as until this year the boats have mainly been from 40 to 20yrs old.. often sitting on a mooring or on the hard for a while.. if it runs I go... like a 40yr old ply boat I collected in Cork.. got halfway across the Irish Sea and it died.. found the fuel tube had collapsed so had to jury up something from various cut offs to get us to Falmouth..
There I contacted Atoll who drove us all over finding new hose, filters etc.. 2 days later we sailed for Spain.. every old boat has its own unique set of problems to resolve.. like setting up a Catalac to be operated by a tiller pilot to over ride the wheel steering..
or re sewing sails to keep you moving.. dealing with engine room fires... there has not been one job even on a new Lagoon 380 where there has not been a problem of some kind...
Just pedal to metal and go is a gross over simplification and a bit insulting to be honest..
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Old 29-12-2013, 11:21   #75
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Re: Legitimate Bluewater Question

Not really, im the one who put 3/4 of the Regis Guillemot fleet in martinique safe and sound, same for dream yacht charters, private deliverys is another matter, and most trips in winter with Mighty Biscay there waiting for us, with a 2 funy days weather window, yes we pull the pedal to the metal to reach La coruņa before we got kicked in the ass by something horrible. All the delivery skippers i meet do the same , even in the Portuguese coast , and most charter companys dont even care if is blowing 35 to 40, he want the boat there because is booked for a charter party, i got a lots of discussions and arguing chats by iridium with some idiots looking the whole picture in a Caribbean charter office. No is not gross, is horrible...
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