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Old 28-12-2013, 18:19   #46
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Re: Legitimate Bluewater Question

Sure, why not.... What was the question?
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Old 28-12-2013, 18:29   #47
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Re: Legitimate Bluewater Question

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Sure, why not.... What was the question?
Exactly. The question was how to not end up like boat B in weather A. The answer already suggested is to 1. Not rely on the engine and 2. Stay away from a lee shore.
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Old 28-12-2013, 18:31   #48
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Re: Legitimate Bluewater Question

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Two sailing seasons under your belt and you haven't even considered storm sails yet??

How about a drogue? Sea anchor? The previously mentioned plenty of sea room? Difficult to hit much out at sea.
Yes, we've considered storm sails, but with the cutter rig, the stay sail is quite heavy sailcloth on a roller furler and can be used as a storm sail if necessary in a pinch. When we go across the Atlantic in a few years time, proper storm sails will be on the list of things to purchase.

Originally following the boat purchase 18 months ago, the plan was to have the boat shipped via freighter to Southern California for some fair weather sailing and liveaboard.... but plans change.
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Old 28-12-2013, 18:31   #49
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Re: Legitimate Bluewater Question

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I missed the other picture during my search... Ken
The beached boat is actually Discovery 67, not Oyster, and was stolen from the marina by some idiots thinkng that there is not a difference between driving car and boat....
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Old 28-12-2013, 18:32   #50
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Re: Legitimate Bluewater Question

I'm not sure why some think kenomac is trying to boost his boat ego. The question is hypothetical and the videos are illustrations of the question.

My suggestion (although vague) to his question would be set up and practice immediate action drills. Set up base scenarios with your crew and practice how you want them handled. Everyone has a job, everyone knows all the other jobs and they have all been practiced. We do this for mob's. We practice with a cushion at various points of sail and iron out the kinks. If the grounded boat had a procedure they "might" have been quicker to react. The military bubbas and football players should be familiar with this idea.
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Old 28-12-2013, 18:41   #51
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Re: Legitimate Bluewater Question

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50 knots of wind down wind running at 8 knots. Is 42 apparent, to suggest that sail is under excessive pressure is nonsensical.

Jib tacks and heads are reinforced for a reason . . . To spread out the concentrated load. When you roll a sail you are moving the tack and head loads to unreinforced points (unless you have specified long roller reinforcing patches as I in fact do) and are applying loads the sail was not designed for. That's simple sail construction and physics.

We can debate how much damage that might do, and it depends on the sail cloth and the loads. Obviously less with cloth that has higher off axis strength, and more with higher loads (like if he has to turn up and sheet in).

A lot of people, like you apparently, do this for long distances. And it works, especially if you are not really picky about sail shape. But I will insist that having a proper sail set is "better practice" both to preserve the sail shape and condition and to be prepared if you need to turn up. I would guess that this boat does have both an innerstay and a proper staysail. And I will also insist that one should be both willing and able to go forward to set it. IMHO, Not being comfortable on the foredeck is a sign if weak seamanship. You need to become comfortable, because in an emergency you may need to be up there and focused on the Job.



Dave
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Old 28-12-2013, 18:44   #52
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Re: Legitimate Bluewater Question

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Originally Posted by DoubleWhisky View Post
The beached boat is actually Discovery 67, not Oyster, and was stolen from the marina by some idiots thinkng that there is not a difference between driving car and boat....
I believe it is an Oyster 82, named "Darling". Here's a link to the story: Latitude 38 - 'Lectronic Latitude
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Old 28-12-2013, 18:55   #53
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Re: Legitimate Bluewater Question

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I can change my Racor primary filter and On engine spinon in under 5 minutes and bleed both . If you cannot you might be in video B.
We also do our own engine service..... to save money.... and practice. Plus, it takes less time to do it myself than to line up a diesel mechanic in a foreign port. 'Lot's of spares onboard plus a Reverso fuel polishing system to be installed this coming May, by prior suggestion from a CF member.

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Old 28-12-2013, 20:17   #54
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Re: Safety vs Comfort Question

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I'd like to pose the following question that I believe is asked by many cruisers on this forum:

If I get caught out in a situation like the boat in Video "A" on our boat (place manufacturer name & model here)... will I end up looking like the boat in Video "B"? What can be done to prevent or minimize the possibility of it happening to me?

Video "A"


Video "B"


My wife and I spent two years researching sailboats before deciding on our present boat; I think may sailors on this forum do the same when choosing an appropriate vessel for their adventures. I don't wish to "stir the pot" with the thread becoming a "my boat is better than your boat" or "all boats are the same" kind of discussion. But rather, I'd like to have folks make suggestions on how any boat might be improved in order to weather the unexpected, or thoughts on how daysailors and coastal cruising boats will be OK for 95% of the time... even for world travel.

I'll start it out by suggesting from our experience, that a boat designed primarily for coastal cruising and entertaining like the many Beneteau Sense cruisers we see in the Med., would be just fine for a world tour. If weekend entertaining is what you'll be doing most of the time, buy the boat best for that purpose, then if you wish to cross and ocean... one can always have the boat shipped to a new coastal cruising ground. This solution would be much cheaper than outfitting a vessel for full time cruising.

Please be constructive and positive in your comments.

Ken
I didn't read all the replies, so sorry if this has been said before.

I don't quite get what you are asking, but the first vid makes me cringe. I hate the tack for one. though they may have no choice, I prefer to face the storm, not a manly "face the storm" but to face it, not beating but close reach. I have more control over the boat on that tack and more options if is gets progressively worse. I don't know if you have ever tried to round up in that kind of sea, its not for the faint of heart ( I have a real fear of getting caught broadside by the wind and waves) .This weather doesn't look like it is a quick squall, so Id not trust that roller furling, rather put up a small sail made for those conditions. Plus, you'd be able to hove to when you get too tired.

the other vessel on the beach, well I got nothing. Just sad to see her there.

Sorry if this sounds generic but it really all comes down to seamanship. Boats can take much more than we can, but good seamanship can make up for any boats failings (loss of an engine, gear failure etc).
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Old 28-12-2013, 20:37   #55
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........
evans, Since you quote funny , I won't copy

Nothing you say I disagree with , since its " standard text book stuff " my experience on deliveries , where I can't choose the setup, is that long journeys , including 40 knot average downwind Atlantic crossings can be happily carried out under roller reefed headsails. ( and the sail was viewed as in good order at the other side by a sail maker ) hence I stand by my comments that's such sail usage , while undeniably less then optimum , is " good enough ", ie fit for purpose, if not" optimum for purpose "

As to working on deck , of course any sea man should be capable of working on the foredeck in most sea conditions and a good boat should be setup to aid that. But it's also true that good maintained equipment ads in minimising excursions to the foredeck in conditions that may be borderline.

Comments about turning to windward , miss several points , a he has a reliable engine ( a boat is a system ) and he has the ability to quickly shorten sail and or deploy the in mast main,

I have sailed these types of configurations across oceans , over other long distances , through Northern European storms etc, they are all capable of doing so , once their advantages and limitations are understood and the appropriate maintenance are carried out. Is it optimum , no , is it fit for purpose, I would argue that is demonstrated by reality of use.

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Old 29-12-2013, 02:46   #56
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Re: Legitimate Bluewater Question

Hey everybody, I think we've gotten way off track here. SIZE="1"] The OP's question was how to keep from ending up like video "B" when sailing like video "A".

Well, I would use the staysail, if that really is 55k in the gusts and certainly if it is the averages; to me, the headsail looks like it is being over-stressed. Depending on your setup, this may be scary to do, but will benefit both boat and crew. One should not stay over canvassed. This has to do with maintaining equipment in usable condition and avoiding overdriving the boat.. If the seas were too high, I would come up a bit, and slowly fore-reach at about 60 degrees apparent, if there were room to do so, till it calmed a bit (or I did!)...or run off!

IMO, you are better off slowing down the boat if she needs it than running the risks of motoring along a lee shore with no main up. If you are on a lee shore, and there is sea room for you to do it, tack offshore to get sea room, even if it is the unfavoured tack; it will give you space to consider your options. It's the hard bits that you must avoid.

Another option, of course, is to reef the main; I did not address it here, 'cause it looked okay, but to me the headsail did not.
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Old 29-12-2013, 05:00   #57
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Re: Legitimate Bluewater Question

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I believe it is an Oyster 82, named "Darling".
You are right.
I was mistaken by early press release here, identifying the boat wrongly.
Sorry
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Old 29-12-2013, 05:11   #58
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Re: Legitimate Bluewater Question

I think that it is important in bad weather to keep sailing (as opposite to motoring) as long as possible. At least we discuss sailing boats there and sails are main mean of propulsion. There is a lot of things to go wrong with engine - even the reliable one, as are most of todays diesels. I think, that better is to keep an engine ready as a last resource.
Good to have a sound ground tackle, well sized anchor, reliable rode etc.
If necessary to look for the shelter it's good to consider an anchorage. Even with mediocre shelter, but offering some screening from the running seas it can be better choice than risk to enter the harbour (we are talking about lee shore here, and entrance to lee shore harbour is almost always more or less risky).

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Old 29-12-2013, 05:26   #59
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I think that it is important in bad weather to keep sailing (as opposite to motoring) as long as possible. At least we discuss sailing boats there and sails are main mean of propulsion. There is a lot of things to go wrong with engine - even the reliable one, as are most of todays diesels. I think, that better is to keep an engine ready as a last resource.
Good to have a sound ground tackle, well sized anchor, reliable rode etc.
If necessary to look for the shelter it's good to consider an anchorage. Even with mediocre shelter, but offering some screening from the running seas it can be better choice than risk to enter the harbour (we are talking about lee shore here, and entrance to lee shore harbour is almost always more or less risky).

I think you must look at modern boat systems as a whole, your engine and fuelling system should receive as much care and attention as your rigging. Hence you should deal with issues like filter clogging by sorting out the tanks. People get into trouble because they avoid difficult maintenance issues.

In today's boats both the engine and sails are " main means" of propulsion , the day of the tiny unreliable auxiliary is long gone.

There's absolutely no reason not to rely on your engine , no more then there is no reason not to rely on your in mast furler working. And if you can't rely on your systems , then remove them from the boat, cause their dead weight.

In modern yachts the engine can be a tremendous asset in a storm, combined with correct sail plans and technique.

We still treat mechanical systems on boats like we had 1920s technology.

I would comment m that by definition, seeking an anchorage on a lee shore is going to very unproductive( unless you particularly know its characteristics) . In my view approaching any " hard bit" should be avoided in heavy weather. The boat is safer at sea, even if its never seems that way. Once you approach the coast you narrow your options and increase the risk of a failure cascade. Most boats are lost cause they contact the hard bits. It can be a very fine line between success and failure in these circumstances

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Old 29-12-2013, 05:27   #60
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Re: Legitimate Bluewater Question

I don't think I understood the OP Q?.
However if I was running as shown in the first pic I would have just had my #3 storm jib up... no main. Yes I have 3 storm jibs ( 150, 100,50) .... and I would have gone down below to make a brew....
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