Learned a lesson - furler reefing gone bad

[billknny]

Originally Posted by Alex_V

JB weld was used to lock things in. Threads were stripped on the old holes in the drum. For the time being it seemed like a right tool. But I agree with your point.

I know JB Weld is a miracle material... but if the holes that should hold these screws are stripped, I would do one of three things before I had full trust in things holding together:

A: Replace the drum. Most expensive, but best way to be sure it will work.
B: Drill and tap the existing holes holes for one larger size screw. Nearly as good as "A"--if feasible.
C: Drill and tap new holes partially rotated around the drum. A good workable solution, if you have the machining chops to get all alignments correct.
D: Install helicoils in the damaged threads. Not always practical, but makes a good repair. A good coating of Loctite on the helicoil keeps the stainless helicoil from corroding the aluminum drum. You can't use Tefgel or similar here, because it will keep the Loctite needed on the screw from sticking.

[Alex_V]

Originally Posted by billknny

I know JB Weld is a miracle material... but if the holes that should hold these screws are stripped, I would do one of three things before I had full trust in things holding together:

A: Replace the drum. Most expensive, but best way to be sure it will work.
B: Drill and tap the existing holes holes for one larger size screw. Nearly as good as "A"--if feasible.
C: Drill and tap new holes partially rotated around the drum. A good workable solution, if you have the machining chops to get all alignments correct.
D: Install helicoils in the damaged threads. Not always practical, but makes a good repair. A good coating of Loctite on the helicoil keeps the stainless helicoil from corroding the aluminum drum. You can't use Tefgel or similar here, because it will keep the Loctite needed on the screw from sticking.

Going to tap and put larger screws in, but for the time being it's good enough fix. Regardless, I will not have full faith in reefing a large Genoa in heavy winds.

[Alex_V]

Three screw that hold the drum are the size of what the socket cover at your house are. Tiny.

[danielamartindm]

Originally Posted by Suijin

I dunno about your boat but my main has a reef in it by the time I see 20 knots if I’m not off the wind. The old saying applies: the time to reef is when you first think of it...or sooner. Makes the boat easier to handle and it’s the harder sail to take in generally. Do it first.

One option when dousing a jib with a broken furler is to open the bow hatch and stuff it in as it comes down. Gets it out of the wind and the foredeck clear. You can sort it out when things calm down.

As for furling it by hand at the bow in heavier wind, it can often be easier and faster heading into the wind, just off the wind. While it will be flogging like mad and a noisy unnerving racket with whipping sheets, it’s unloaded and quicker. YMMV depending on boat and conditions.

Yeah, agreed. 20 knots, and I've already got a first reef in my main.

[Matt Johnson]

The Sabre 34 needs the main reefed much, much sooner. We typically took our first around 18 knots. Or, if you don't have an wind gauge, remember it wants to be less than 15 degrees heel when closed hauled.

Also guessing that you have the Harken mk1 original furler. If you tap for new machine screws, don't install slotted like Harken supplied. Go with hex drive screws and make sure you use the Loctite blue as suggested earlier.

Matt

[Alex_V]

Originally Posted by funjohnson

The Sabre 34 needs the main reefed much, much sooner. We typically took our first around 18 knots. Or, if you don't have an wind gauge, remember it wants to be less than 15 degrees heel when closed hauled.

Also guessing that you have the Harken mk1 original furler. If you tap for new machine screws, don't install slotted like Harken supplied. Go with hex drive screws and make sure you use the Loctite blue as suggested earlier.

Matt

Main full in 30 knots didn't seem bad at all. Once the Genoa was rolled that's how I sailed back home. I believe 25% degrees give or take is what the boat likes.

[Matt Johnson]

It's right in the manual as to when to reef and what degree of heel it was designed for. Plus, the rudder loads up and induces extreme weather helm at 25 degrees.

Matt

[Alex_V]

Originally Posted by funjohnson

It's right in the manual as to when to reef and what degree of heel it was designed for. Plus, the rudder loads up and induces extreme weather helm at 25 degrees.

Matt

I got to look at the manual again. For whatever reason I thought 20-25% was teh sweet spot on the boat. What year is your boat?

Regardless, I think I am going to practice taking down sails in heavy winds just to be better prepared next time.

And checking furler system is added to my pre-flight list.

[dsdmedic]

Originally Posted by Alex_V

Fast forward to yesterday. My girlfriend and I were out sailing on Lake Lanier in 20 - 30 knot winds that hurricane Michael brought to Atlanta. Was not going to reef the main, but the oversize Genoa was going to be reefed at about half point maybe less. Well, that was the plan as I carefully eased out the furling line. Tied it off, and was ready to roll.
...

So, I am on a lee side of the lake with a shallow spot on my port side. This is not hurricane winds, but it doesn't feel very good either. Either way, I need to bring the Genoa in.

Not sure if there was a better way to handle this (open to ideas), First, I cranked up the motor for more control. Headed towards the opposite side of the lake balancing gust of wind and sail luffing, just at that fine edge where things were manageable. Hid behind one of the islands, turned the boat around to run with the wind direction, which felt much calmer by the way. Went to the bow and hand rolled the sail. Rest was easy money.

First off, hiya Alex! Great to see somebody else who sails on Lake Lanier around here! I was hoping to get out the other day in that 20+ but work kept me tied to the desk. We don't get 20+kts that often up here to practice in, and Lanier is just big enough to do so.

That said, getting the boat someplace more protected was certainly a good call. We're lucky that we've generally got some protection, and deep enough water to get in close if we need it -- those shallow spots in the middle of the lake sure are a PITA, though. As for hand rolling the sail, that's a move that might be workable on Lake Lanier, but I wouldn't be comfortable running forward any trying it in 30+ kts in the open ocean with a sea going. On an inshore lake with no waves or current and stable conditions though? Yeah, I imagine that was probably easier than trying to drop the genny and lash it, or stuff it down the hatch.

At sea, I'd be inclined to go ahead and bring it down and either lash it to the lifelines or toss it all below into the v-berth and sort it out later. Short-term, cable ties could be a G-dsend in that situation -- certainly a chafe concern longer term, but for an emergency, short-term, short-handed lash job, they could help secure things long enough to do a better job with rope, sail ties, webbing, etc. Something to think about, and that I've always got a bag of in my offshore kit. (Do keep in mind, most don't have a great UV exposure life, so don't rely on them for too long!)

The most important thing, however, is that you kept calm, sorted out a plan, and made it work. Worthwhile to point out to the girlfriend that stuff going wrong in sailing is always a possibility, just like life. It's the ability to figure out how to respond that's really valuable, and clearly you've got that!

As for tethers or jacklines, how many of the sailboats on Lanier do you think have any provision to easily rig jacklines, or even have a tether aboard. Was something I thought about the last time I went out for some practice in higher winds, we tend to take the mild conditions for granted until we get bit, I think.

Where do you sail out of on Lanier, perhaps I'll see you guys out one day. I have a Hunter 31 at Sunrise Cove.

Darren

[Dave Lochner]

Originally Posted by Alex_V

I got to look at the manual again. For whatever reason I thought 20-25% was teh sweet spot on the boat. What year is your boat?

Regardless, I think I am going to practice taking down sails in heavy winds just to be better prepared next time.

And checking furler system is added to my pre-flight list.

Most boats, including Sabres, like to be sailed flatter than on its ear. Sabre designed the cabin top to give an idea of the maximum effective heel. The top of the cabin has a subtle curve that tends to flatten out towards the edge. When that flat area is level to the horizon, you're at max effective heel. If it is pointing skyward, you're over way too far.

There are lots of factors to determine when to reef. When I had my Sabre 30, I would carry a full main and 150 genoa up to about 20 knots if I was on a beam to broad reach. If I was headed to weather, reefing occurred at a lower wind speed. Typically I furled the genoa in first. Reducing it to about a 135%.

Another factor to consider is the air temperature and humidity. Cold dry air is denser than warm air and carries more energy than warm moist air. In the spring and fall, it will be necessary to reef sooner and at lower wind speeds, than on a hot humid day.

FWIW, there is an active group of Sabre Sailors on Yahoo. Last I checked there were over 1000 members. Check it out.

[hamburking]

I had a similar experience. Early season, put on the jib and rolled it up, then headed from my winter storage marina to my summer dock a few miles away. The wind was astern, so I unrolled the jib and enjoyed the first sail of the year, even if it was just a short delivery. When I arrive at my summer marina, it was pretty windy, maybe 15 knots, and no lee. I tried to roll up the jib. Long story short...halyard wrap. The jib rolled a few turns then jammed. Could not unroll it (to drop the sail) or roll it up. I tried to roll by hand, passing the sheets around the forestay, but after 2 turns my arms where exhausted (big sail). By now my crew, who was at the helm, was getting upset. The solution I came up with was to do tight circles under engine, letting the wind do the work of rolling up the sail. It took a while, and we likely looked ridiculous doing tight circles, and it was still difficult passing the sheets around the forestay, but eventually I got it wound up and headed for my dock.

I got it sorted out at the dock a few days later on a dead calm, no wind day. I had never heard of halyard wrap before that day. Minimal damage, but my crew that day never sailed with me again. Now my ex-wife.

[Time2Go]

A trick I learned from my big RC airplanes
I put a drop of nail polish on all mission
critical screws, nuts and bolts.
If I ever find one lose on my bench, in the car,
in the pits, I know it’s no go until
I figure out where it’s from.

Cheers
Neil

[Capt Y Knot]

I also found small screws on the fore deck this summer, since I worked on the Harken MK-1 last winter I was familiar with the fasteners and tracked down where they came from. The screws came from the torque tube pre feeder bracket.

In fact both screws fell out and with luck I found them both. Trying to screw them back in place they would not snug up. I backed both screws out and alternately took one turn on each screw. That worked. If one screw is in tight the bracket is not flush with the torque tube.

I also put on some blue lock tite on the threads and had not trouble this season.

The screws also could have come from the turn buckle assembly.

Fair Winds

[hellosailor]

"Main full in 30 knots didn't seem bad at all."
I'm a firm believer in finding and using the polars for a boat, when they're available. Because "seat of the pants" just doesn't usually grasp the law of cosines and which course really is fastest...the polars will usually tell you just when to reef. You may find the optimum angle of heel is only 10-15 degrees, or the time to put the first reef in the main is as little as 16 knots. You read the numbers and say "No freaking way!" and sometimes, yes, the numbers are wrong. More often though, they are right.

If the polars are available for your hull, or if you can generate them for it.

If reefing "too early" is what the polars say to do, it may just mean that having less leeway, better sail angle, and not having to use the speed brake [rudder] as much all add up to sailing faster and more comfortably.

Not at all intuitive, but very much worth *trying*.

WRT to Loctite and other thread lockers? Great stuff, but it only works well if the threads are degreased and cleaned, and the product is fresh. Most of them have a shelf life of two years if unopened, and at best only one year after opening. The "lipstick" type of thread locker suffers less from this, fwiw. I've taken to using a sharpie and putting the "buy" date on tubes of goo that will kick off on the shelf.

[Montanan]

For want of three screws, the furling was lost, . . .

Feel free to compose the rest of the poem, but clearly you did a great job of handling the situation:
Safety [life vests],
Stabilization [hove to],
Steering [motoring, luffing to move to windward],
Sheltering [seeking lee of island],
Securing [hand furling], albeit lowering to secure the large genoa would have been my choice, since it was overpowering the boat, [that is the primary use for my front hatch - to access the V-birth to stow the foresail, but then I grew up sailing with hanked on foresails so changing out from genoa to jib and back again was the routine with changing wind conditions, and then in later years towards using furling head sails.

Yes impressive situational response. I suspect your Anna will welcome
another less challenging day of sailing with her trusted skipper friend.

Lessons learned: Search for where the loose screw came from.