lazy jacks and no boom

[mike carter]

Hi
We have just recently finished building a wharram tiki 46
It has a gaff rig and a loose footed sail ,no boom.
Does anyone know how to rig up lazy jacks for this type of sail .
Mike

[Jim Cate]

Well, Mike, that is an odd one!! Never heard of a boomless gaffer, but I ain't seen it all!

Being that lazy jacks are kinda defined as a system to gather a sail onto the boom when lowering, I don't see how you can do it. perhaps someone brighter than me sees a way.

Good luck!

Jim

[JPA Cate]

Not at all the same as lazy jacks, but how about some pad eyes on the gaff, with bungees fixed to it. Then, lower the gaff, furl the sail, the old fashioned way, rolling it around itself, and tension the bungees around the furled sail.

If I were to do this, I would run 4 pad eyes, one near the mast and the others spread equidistantly along the gaff. Then make two long runs, one, clean, through the pad eyes, the other with nylon hooks between the pad eyes along the bungee, so that once the sail is furled, it is simple to hook them.

As Jim wrote, above, lazy jacks go from mast to boom, without a boom, you can't do that!

Ann

[ScottMeilicke]

Maybe drop the sail and gather it up with bungie cord?


Sent from my iPhone using Cruisers Sailing Forum

[Simonsays]

here's one so Jim has seen one:

mainsail is bridled up
there are a few more pictures over at woodenboat.
footloose is more common on lugger than on gaffer though.

(@OP: sorry, i have no idea)

[Snowpetrel]

Put a series of eyelets along the foot of the sail and rig the lazyjacks through them. As long as you keep some tension on the sheet they should work as normal.

Threading the wharram short gaff through them might be a nuisance.

I guess you could also run some sort of line under the sail from tack to clew and run the lazyjacks down to it, then its easy to undo it at the clew and run it fwd out of the way.

[GordMay]

Greetings and welcome aboard the CF, Mike.

[AD28]

I had a Tiki 21, but of course its sail was so small it didn't need much help.

That said, the above suggestion re: eyelets in the foot might work, but it would definitely need tension aft so you'd have to sheet in hard and center the traveller. Is the traveller a passive one as it is on the T21? Might make that tension thing pretty difficult

You _might_ could have a batten sewn at the foot to act as a sort of 'boomlet' to get the support. It appears to me that lazyjacks are run from fore on the mast to aft on the back end of the sail and thus tend to pull forward - the boom resists this, but the Tiki Wingsail design doesn't have a boom...

There's also this problem: isn't the sail sleeved to attach to the mast? You can't attach the jacks except at the masthead, then. That would, though, sort of solve your 'forward-pulling' issue in that a higher attachment point would tend to pull upwards rather than forwards.

I have always been under the impression that Jim Wharram and Hanneke Boon have been very easy to contact and quite helpful. I'd just go to them or to the wharram.com forums... other Wharram owners will be of best help to you

[ggray]

This probably won't help, but you might get an idea from looking at a Nonsuch.

They have a wishbone boom that lazy jacks could be attached to, but the sail extends below that. I believe I have seen lasy jacks on one, but didn't pay much attention; I suppose the lazy jacks extend to hang below the boom(s) to gather that lower part.

As I said, probably won't help.

[TrentePieds]

In Scowegian topsl schooners and galeases of yore, the fore'n'aft sail on the forward mast (foremast and mainmast, respectively) was occasionally loose-footed in order to avoid having a boom impede the work on deck. The gaff was never lowered in ordinary sail handling. The clew of the sail was "clewed up" by means of a brail originating on the mast just above the forks on the gaff, taken down to the clew rather like a buntline, then back up to a turning block, again on the mast immediately above the forks, then to a fife and pin at the foot of the mast or inside the bulwarks.

When clewed up, the sail cloth hangs slack-ass up along the mast and along the underside of the gaff. To a Corinthian it looks slovenly beyond measure, but this rig was appropriate for working ships whose crews needed clear space on deck and really didn't care about appearances.

If you got yourself in doo-doo in a blow, you "scandalized" the gaff by lowering the peak to the deck, or, if the doo-doo got deeper, you struck the gaff altogether. Remember these were two-stickers, so balance and drive was maintained by means of headsls as appropriate and the reefed main in a schooner, or reefed mizzen in a galeas.

I've only been in a Wharram cat once, but I can see where a loose-footed main could be perceived by some as a distinct advantage in one of those, for once you are as far from the mainstream of sailing vessel development as Wharrams are, you no doubt would be disposed towards exotic arrangements in other respects.

The Wharram I was in was a one-sticker and I'd need some serious convincing that a loose-footed gaff main would be the best and safest rig for such a vessel.

TrentePieds

[UNCIVILIZED]

I think that you may have to rig something akin to what they use on some of the Open/IMOCA 60 Class Monohulls. Where there is in essence, a soft cradle, made of cloth, that's attached to the boom. To which the lazy jacks connect along it's upper edge.
I don't have the best pics on hand at the moment, but something like these are what I'm referring to.
http://www.boot24.com/img/objektbild...5fe1a0bb84.jpg
http://carbosailing.fr/evenement/VG2...ton-olones.jpg

In your case, the soft cradle for the sail may require a firm (stout) batten, running along it's bottom end. Or even a piece of bamboo, PVC pipe, length of heavy rope, etc. In order to keep the lower end of the system in place.
IE; to take the place of a boom. Though what you use, & how stiff you want it to be would be up to you, obviously.

And if it's not apparent from the pics, the lazy jacks in such a system, are attached to the soft cradle, at points along it's upper edges. Much as is the case on some of the Stack Pack type systems, where there's even a longitudinal batten along each side of the upper end of the sail cover/lazy jack cradle. To which the lazy jacks are connected.
With some of them even just using a piece of PVC pipe for the upper longitudinal batten to attach the lazy jacks to, & act as a defining edge for the sail's lazy jacks cradle/sail cover.

Then, once the sail is dropped into the cradle, there's a flap on each side of the cloth cradle's upper edge, in the same space that the sail drops into. Which has 1/2 of a heavy duty zipper on each side. And once the sail's lowered, the two halves of this flap are zippered together.
So that the sail is enclosed/encased on all sides by this system/cover.

I hope that that makes sense, & if I find some good pictures of such a setup, later on, I'll come back & post them. Albeit, since you don't have a boom, some of the design aspects of the system, would be uniquely individual to your boat. Limited only by your imagination.

[first wind]

Originally Posted by Simonsays

here's one so Jim has seen one:

mainsail is bridled up
there are a few more pictures over at woodenboat.
footloose is more common on lugger than on gaffer though.

(@OP: sorry, i have no idea)

i know dipping lugs are boomless. balanced lugs certainly can't be. are there boomless standing lug rigs? i have never seen one.

[Snowpetrel]

Originally Posted by first wind

i know dipping lugs are boomless. balanced lugs certainly can't be. are there boomless standing lug rigs? i have never seen one.

Yes, the most common type of standing lug is boomless. If you are going to put a boom on one you might as well go for a ballance lug.

[IMG]oldmodelkits.com/jpegs/Remploy%20Industry.JPG[/IMG] dipping lug mainsail, standing lug mizzen. A very powerfull and fast rig.

I have only sailed one ship with a standing gaff with brails. It took a lot of work to brail it up to the mast. Look it the brail winches on the thames barges. A lot of load on that main brail line.

[first wind]

Originally Posted by Snowpetrel

Yes, the most common type of standing lug is boomless. If you are going to put a boom on one you might as well go for a ballance lug.

[IMG]oldmodelkits.com/jpegs/Remploy%20Industry.JPG[/IMG] dipping lug mainsail, standing lug mizzen. A very powerfull and fast rig.

I have only sailed one ship with a standing gaff with brails. It took a lot of work to brail it up to the mast. Look it the brail winches on the thames barges. A lot of load on that main brail line.

thames river barges usually have boomless sprit sails. i think you are confusing gaff sails with sprit sails.

[Banshe]

G'day,

Why on earth do you want lazy jacks if you don't have a boom? It's a bit of a contradiction!

James