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Old 26-03-2016, 16:48   #16
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Re: lazy jacks and no boom

Try modifying a Dutchman furling system. Run a line above the gaff, from mast to mast, that can be loosened to allow the sail to shape and the gaff to trim outboard, attaching the ends to the foot of the sail. the loose jacklines would be kept orderly, as they are threaded through the sail with eyelets made into the sail. as the gaff were lowered the sail would flake betwixt the foot and the gaff. wince the sail was secured to the gaff could be lowered the rest of the way by loosening the jacklines. It's a might cleaner than bunching it at the mast.

Hope this of help
Lance
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Old 26-03-2016, 16:59   #17
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Re: lazy jacks and no boom

Thanks to all who have replied
I have certainly read with interest everyones opinion
I have also emailed James wharram and Hanneke to see what their opinion is.
The reason i am looking into lazy jacks especially on the missen mast is to contain the sail so as not to land on the solar panels on the cockpit roof.
Mike
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Old 26-03-2016, 17:10   #18
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Re: lazy jacks and no boom

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Originally Posted by Snowpetrel View Post
If you are going to put a boom on one you might as well go for a ballance lug.
i would tend to disagree with that, to an extent. to each his own, i suppose, but, a boom greatly improves sail performance. there is a difference between the way balanced lugs and standing lugs behave.

a balanced lug is self vanging. the balanced nature of the rig makes gybing less dramatic. those are good qualities. balanced lugs were mostly used for pleasure boats because of those qualities.

however, a standing rig is a benefit as a working boat rig. the boom lifts, allowing the sail to twist and spill wind, in a sudden blow. it's a great safety valve for a fisherman out in rough weather providing for his family.

i have sailed sprit rigs boomless and with a boom. i wouldn't choose boomless. the boom is a huge improvement. of course, you can't scandalize a sprit rig with a boom. still, as a trade off, it's a winner.

for a thames river barge sailing in crowded water ways, not having a boom is a useful concession...plus being able to scandalize the sail in rough weather is as useful for a working boat as is the sail twist in a standing lug.

i don't happen to sail a working boat, so, i don't need to make the concession.
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Old 26-03-2016, 17:29   #19
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pirate Re: lazy jacks and no boom

Its unlikely you'll be reefing the mizzen so..
when you drop it.. fold it on itself to the size of the gaff, lash it and use the control line to tip up the gaff..
As for the main.. my 21 & 26 had reef points and conventional ties.. lower, tie the lines to hold the foot up to the new point.. otherwise follow the same procedure to stow..
I have in the past considered a light flexi boom however.. 1 1/2" plastic tube in a sleeve along the foot to stop the bunching when reefed.. you may need a larger bore.. but it must be flexible to work with the gull wing sail.
My 21 with the main bundled and stowed..
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Old 26-03-2016, 20:23   #20
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Re: lazy jacks and no boom

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thames river barges usually have boomless sprit sails. i think you are confusing gaff sails with sprit sails.
You are right, I was pointing out that they brail them the same way as a standing gaff, and use substantial winches to help. Brialing a big sail in a bit of wind isnt as easy as it sounds. I think some of the latter barges went to a standing gaff?

Certainly it was impressive how one man and a boy could handle those big barges up tight tidal rivers with no engine!
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Old 26-03-2016, 20:28   #21
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Re: lazy jacks and no boom

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Originally Posted by first wind View Post
i would tend to disagree with that, to an extent. to each his own, i suppose, but, a boom greatly improves sail performance. there is a difference between the way balanced lugs and standing lugs behave.

a balanced lug is self vanging. the balanced nature of the rig makes gybing less dramatic. those are good qualities. balanced lugs were mostly used for pleasure boats because of those qualities.

however, a standing rig is a benefit as a working boat rig. the boom lifts, allowing the sail to twist and spill wind, in a sudden blow. it's a great safety valve for a fisherman out in rough weather providing for his family.

i have sailed sprit rigs boomless and with a boom. i wouldn't choose boomless. the boom is a huge improvement. of course, you can't scandalize a sprit rig with a boom. still, as a trade off, it's a winner.

for a thames river barge sailing in crowded water ways, not having a boom is a useful concession...plus being able to scandalize the sail in rough weather is as useful for a working boat as is the sail twist in a standing lug.

i don't happen to sail a working boat, so, i don't need to make the concession.
Good points. Though I hate the way a standing lug yard twists off when running dead downwind and causes rolling. The self vanging effect of the ballanced lug helps reduce this effect, which I think is a big plus. I like the look of welsfords sprit boomed standing lugs for the same reason.
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Old 27-03-2016, 05:40   #22
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Re: lazy jacks and no boom

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Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED View Post
I think that you may have to rig something akin to what they use on some of the Open/IMOCA 60 Class Monohulls. Where there is in essence, a soft cradle, made of cloth, that's attached to the boom. To which the lazy jacks connect along it's upper edge.
I don't have the best pics on hand at the moment, but something like these are what I'm referring to.
http://www.boot24.com/img/objektbild...5fe1a0bb84.jpg
http://carbosailing.fr/evenement/VG2...ton-olones.jpg

In your case, the soft cradle for the sail may require a firm (stout) batten, running along it's bottom end. Or even a piece of bamboo, PVC pipe, length of heavy rope, etc. In order to keep the lower end of the system in place.
IE; to take the place of a boom. Though what you use, & how stiff you want it to be would be up to you, obviously.

And if it's not apparent from the pics, the lazy jacks in such a system, are attached to the soft cradle, at points along it's upper edges. Much as is the case on some of the Stack Pack type systems, where there's even a longitudinal batten along each side of the upper end of the sail cover/lazy jack cradle. To which the lazy jacks are connected.
With some of them even just using a piece of PVC pipe for the upper longitudinal batten to attach the lazy jacks to, & act as a defining edge for the sail's lazy jacks cradle/sail cover.





Then, once the sail is dropped into the cradle, there's a flap on each side of the cloth cradle's upper edge, in the same space that the sail drops into. Which has 1/2 of a heavy duty zipper on each side. And once the sail's lowered, the two halves of this flap are zippered together.
So that the sail is enclosed/encased on all sides by this system/cover.

I hope that that makes sense, & if I find some good pictures of such a setup, later on, I'll come back & post them. Albeit, since you don't have a boom, some of the design aspects of the system, would be uniquely individual to your boat. Limited only by your imagination.
As things progressed, while I dug for some images. It became easier to picture the nature of your problem. No pun intended.

I'm curious as to the advantages of your boat's sail configuration. And have been ever since the Tiki 38 captured my imagination ages ago.
Given that, to me, it seems like without a boom, most of the options which one has for trimming a sail, disappear. As would it's efficency on most points of sail.

Obviously, there's no boom to contend with, from the perspective of something which might knock one in the head, but otherwise...
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Old 27-03-2016, 16:16   #23
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Re: lazy jacks and no boom

I still have a 24' trimaran that came with a full batten but boomless main- and lazyjacks. It works great!!! This is not very large (34' hoist, 11' boom), but I can't see any reason it wouldn't scale up quite large. It used a slightly over size batten with small eyelets on the very bottom in a pocket which keeps the lazyjacks spaced but has very little load otherwise. Slab reefing still works fine with it also. It is very simple and very light. Try it!
I think some Stiletto catamarans used a similar system.
FWIW- I consider gaffs as just an early form of square top mains, with modern materials, gaffs can have almost the same effect and not many negatives.
B
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Old 27-03-2016, 18:44   #24
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Re: lazy jacks and no boom

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowpetrel View Post
You are right, I was pointing out that they brail them the same way as a standing gaff, and use substantial winches to help. Brialing a big sail in a bit of wind isnt as easy as it sounds. I think some of the latter barges went to a standing gaff?

Certainly it was impressive how one man and a boy could handle those big barges up tight tidal rivers with no engine!

right. i got you about the brail line. i also agree, that's an impressive bit of work for such a light crew.
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Old 27-03-2016, 18:48   #25
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Re: lazy jacks and no boom

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Originally Posted by Snowpetrel View Post
Good points. Though I hate the way a standing lug yard twists off when running dead downwind and causes rolling. The self vanging effect of the ballanced lug helps reduce this effect, which I think is a big plus. I like the look of welsfords sprit boomed standing lugs for the same reason.
i think that's the reason most pleasure boats that use the lug use a balanced lug. and, i also agree. i like the balanced lug better.

a sprit boom standing lug does give you the benefit of being self vanging. but, i also like the gentler nature having more of the sail in front of the mast gives the balanced lug.
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Old 28-03-2016, 04:08   #26
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Re: lazy jacks and no boom

I have never seen a Wharram luff pocket wingsail with lazy jacks. There are many fans of this sail. I am not one of them.
Boatman's description is accurate. Some people have had problems lowering their sails due to friction of the pocket on the mast, especially when wet.
I had a Tiki 30 so my mainsail was small. We used to joke about the mainsail,
"oh it's up, it must be trimmed".I have never seen a mainsail less responsive to trimming.
The main sail had to be pulled down. the luff pocket has to bunch up at the bottom, the sail folded across the middle and then secured with gaskets and bag. A quicker way to soften the sailcloth eludes me. The first Tiki 46 owners cut the luff pockets off of their sails and used grommets and lacings at the mast. They also added booms and stacking packs.
All of the Wharrams we have since built have had booms and no gaffs.
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