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Old 14-07-2012, 06:57   #61
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Re: LATEST PIRATE NEWS

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Originally Posted by mausgras View Post
... A lot more could also be done by Interpol in tracking down the money trail and freezing assets of the big players. Like the drug trade it is not a solution by itself but would make life a lot more difficult for the paymasters behind the pirates
Unlike with the drug trade, there may not be much of a conventional money trail to follow.

Chasing the Somali piracy money trail (BBC News)
BBC News - Chasing the Somali piracy money trail

Treasure Mapped ➥ http://www.chathamhouse.org/sites/de..._shortland.pdf

Following the pirates' money? Here we go again
Following the pirates' money? Here we go again
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Old 14-07-2012, 08:47   #62
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Re: LATEST PIRATE NEWS

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What " big show"

Dave
You know the one where Fred Astair and Ginger Rogers come out and they do a real spiffy dance number that brings down the house...DVC
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Old 14-07-2012, 09:28   #63
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Originally Posted by Bruce626
goboatingnow wrote:

1) "yet the US has significant crime stats up near the top for civilized countries. Your argument fails." ==> Not if one performs a more detailed analysis of where these crime stats come from. The areas with the crime are usually minority areas - often black - where where is a large gang presence and contention over the distribution of illegal drugs. In general these are more liberal states like New York and California, or Washington, DC; and specifically in these minority urban sub-cultures: NYC, SF, LA, Chicago where 'gun control' has been in vogue for many years. Outside of these areas, in right to carry states, there is a much lower incidence of crime. The statistics show that contrary to what many 'liberals' contend, the right of honest and law abiding citizens to carry a concealed handgun has not resulted in increased crime, but has helped to lower the rates of criminal activity.

2) "maybe , you just mean , the governments that "we" don't like at any particular time , shouldn't have them , even though in general "we" gave them all their weapons in the first place." ==> No, I mean repressive governments who are willing to turn heavy weapons on their own citizens who wish to protest against government policies or the lack of free and fair elections. And, no, "we" didn't give most of these governments their weapons - I see no evidence that the USA has armed Russia, China, Burma, North Korea, or many other repressive governments. Indeed, repressive governments have existed long before the USA became a world power, and they have never needed any help in arming their minions to protect themselves from their citizens.

3) "Your views are right-wing, conservative and naive." ==> I see nothing wrong with this except perhaps for the 'naive' which is unsubstantiated. One could note that your views seem left-wing, liberal, and equally 'naive' (i.e. based on a different set of selective information). People are entitled to form and express diverse opinions - no problem there. I find it odd you want to bring the NRA and Fox news into the discussion - I reside in the Philippines and am not an NRA member, nor is Fox news typically available here (although some cable providers offer it if one pays for it - no cable on my catamaran).

4) "after all we the western word created these messes" ==> I think not. Criminals and thugs all over the world are perfectly capable of engaging in their nefarious activities without the assistance of the "western world". Many of these cultures have been engaging in such behavior long before the "west" became a major force in the world. Individual decisions to engage in criminal activity are just that - individual. Each person has the free will to behave in an ethical or evil manner; their decisions lie with themselves and not with anyone else.
We could get sidetracked here into a RTBA argument. The experience of the vast majority of countries does not coincide with your views and the US remains the only significant exponent of the RTBA argument. Arguably it has not turned into a crime free utopia as a result. ....!

The western world has of coursed armed ,many " uncivilised " countries such as IRAQ and IRAN , Saudi arabia, Syria, Egypt, Yemen, liberia , etc etc. much damage has been done in the " so called" sphere of influences.

I am a right wing liberal, I am conservative monetarily but socially liberal.

Unfortunately Africa and to a lesser extent Asia has been a playground for years in imperial and post colonial western politics. The British in particular have a lot to answer for as do the major pre world war European powers. Arbitrarily boundaries, arbitrarily selected rulers, exploration of resources, internal meddling, arms trades, supporting Christians against Muslims, right wingers against left wingers ( and then reversing our attention to the other side) all has generated areas of considerable chaos. In the post war, cold war period the US played a major role in destabilising regimes it didn't " like" and supporting equally fascist and undemrocratic states too. A role it took up from the European colonial powers quite admirably .

Take Somalia the whole issue is virtually a western creation, where US centric policy actively didn't want a muslim controlled gulf of Aden , variously interfering to cause instability and the collapse of a society. Russia of course being the other player in this game , though a far less effective one. Parts of Africa are a mess because " we" made it so. We have left and are leaving a terrible legacy there.

It's convient to ignore these wider geopolitical issues and just pretend it's all local thugs. Its funny how Sadam Hussein went from " darling of the west during the Iran wars to demon later on. In general from northern Ireland to Somalia to Palestine, these types of conflict have a socio-political issue at the bottom of it. To deal with these situations you must start to fix the underlying problems, because you cannot subjugate a nation by force ( not Vietnam, not Afghanistan not anywhere ) force can mask the issues or contain them, it can't resolve them.

The pirate issue will resolve itself when Somalia and or Putland regains the ability to control its destiny, bring its citizens out of abject poverty and starvation and enforce its own civil law and police it.

Strafing a few ex-fisherman will do little.

Dave
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Old 14-07-2012, 10:54   #64
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Re: LATEST PIRATE NEWS

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce626 View Post
goboatingnow wrote:

1) "yet the US has significant crime stats up near the top for civilized countries. Your argument fails." ==> Not if one performs a more detailed analysis of where these crime stats come from. The areas with the crime are usually minority areas - often black - where where is a large gang presence and contention over the distribution of illegal drugs. In general these are more liberal states like New York and California, or Washington, DC; and specifically in these minority urban sub-cultures: NYC, SF, LA, Chicago where 'gun control' has been in vogue for many years. Outside of these areas, in right to carry states, there is a much lower incidence of crime. The statistics show that contrary to what many 'liberals' contend, the right of honest and law abiding citizens to carry a concealed handgun has not resulted in increased crime, but has helped to lower the rates of criminal activity.

2) "maybe , you just mean , the governments that "we" don't like at any particular time , shouldn't have them , even though in general "we" gave them all their weapons in the first place." ==> No, I mean repressive governments who are willing to turn heavy weapons on their own citizens who wish to protest against government policies or the lack of free and fair elections. And, no, "we" didn't give most of these governments their weapons - I see no evidence that the USA has armed Russia, China, Burma, North Korea, or many other repressive governments. Indeed, repressive governments have existed long before the USA became a world power, and they have never needed any help in arming their minions to protect themselves from their citizens.

3) "Your views are right-wing, conservative and naive." ==> I see nothing wrong with this except perhaps for the 'naive' which is unsubstantiated. One could note that your views seem left-wing, liberal, and equally 'naive' (i.e. based on a different set of selective information). People are entitled to form and express diverse opinions - no problem there. I find it odd you want to bring the NRA and Fox news into the discussion - I reside in the Philippines and am not an NRA member, nor is Fox news typically available here (although some cable providers offer it if one pays for it - no cable on my catamaran).

4) "after all we the western word created these messes" ==> I think not. Criminals and thugs all over the world are perfectly capable of engaging in their nefarious activities without the assistance of the "western world". Many of these cultures have been engaging in such behavior long before the "west" became a major force in the world. Individual decisions to engage in criminal activity are just that - individual. Each person has the free will to behave in an ethical or evil manner; their decisions lie with themselves and not with anyone else.

Well said.

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Old 14-07-2012, 11:02   #65
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Re: LATEST PIRATE NEWS

Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
We could get sidetracked here into a RTBA argument. The experience of the vast majority of countries does not coincide with your views and the US remains the only significant exponent of the RTBA argument. Arguably it has not turned into a crime free utopia as a result. ....!

The western world has of coursed armed ,many " uncivilised " countries such as IRAQ and IRAN , Saudi arabia, Syria, Egypt, Yemen, liberia , etc etc. much damage has been done in the " so called" sphere of influences.

I am a right wing liberal, I am conservative monetarily but socially liberal.

Unfortunately Africa and to a lesser extent Asia has been a playground for years in imperial and post colonial western politics. The British in particular have a lot to answer for as do the major pre world war European powers. Arbitrarily boundaries, arbitrarily selected rulers, exploration of resources, internal meddling, arms trades, supporting Christians against Muslims, right wingers against left wingers ( and then reversing our attention to the other side) all has generated areas of considerable chaos. In the post war, cold war period the US played a major role in destabilising regimes it didn't " like" and supporting equally fascist and undemrocratic states too. A role it took up from the European colonial powers quite admirably .

Take Somalia the whole issue is virtually a western creation, where US centric policy actively didn't want a muslim controlled gulf of Aden , variously interfering to cause instability and the collapse of a society. Russia of course being the other player in this game , though a far less effective one. Parts of Africa are a mess because " we" made it so. We have left and are leaving a terrible legacy there.

It's convient to ignore these wider geopolitical issues and just pretend it's all local thugs. Its funny how Sadam Hussein went from " darling of the west during the Iran wars to demon later on. In general from northern Ireland to Somalia to Palestine, these types of conflict have a socio-political issue at the bottom of it. To deal with these situations you must start to fix the underlying problems, because you cannot subjugate a nation by force ( not Vietnam, not Afghanistan not anywhere ) force can mask the issues or contain them, it can't resolve them.

The pirate issue will resolve itself when Somalia and or Putland regains the ability to control its destiny, bring its citizens out of abject poverty and starvation and enforce its own civil law and police it.

Strafing a few ex-fisherman will do little.

Dave

While I agree strafing a few ex-fishermen will do little it should be noted that humans have had the same behavior patterns for all of time. Attack the next village/town/province/country for "gain" is nothing new.

We need to change our DNA huh?
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Old 15-07-2012, 06:54   #66
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Re: LATEST PIRATE NEWS

goboatingnow wrote "To deal with these situations you must start to fix the underlying problems, because you cannot subjugate a nation by force ( not Vietnam, not Afghanistan not anywhere ) force can mask the issues or contain them, it can't resolve them." ==> Perhaps we have some common ground here - I would like nothing better than to have the USA revert to its traditionally isolationist stance in global politics. We should close our thousand+ foreign bases and bring all of our troops home to new bases sited along our southern border. We should wind down all of our current wars and avoid starting new ones - to this end we should drop all of our 'entangling alliances' starting with NATO and including all of the other '*TO' organizations that call for a USA response to a local attack. We should end all foreign, military, economic, and disaster aid funded by the US government - NGOs can do what they like, just not with taxpayer funds illegally given away. The UN should be removed from New York and relocated to some more neutral country like Brazil or India (with a reduction in the salaries of UN bureaucrats to reflect the new cost of living expenses). And the UN Security Council (UNSC) should be reformed to allow any country to be a permanent member if said country funds 5% of the total UN budget - and if a country wants a veto, it would pay an additional 5% of the UN budget (up front at the beginning of each fiscal year). General assembly members would pay the balance of the budget evenly divided by those who want to vote (any country can participate and debate even if not paid - just not vote). I could go on, but this would get the USA out of having to police the world at US taxpayer expense.
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Old 15-07-2012, 07:13   #67
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Re: LATEST PIRATE NEWS

This discussion becomes entirely political. A pretty hopeless discussion with no
pc-desktop solutions.
If it is of no concern as no one is going there.
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Old 15-07-2012, 08:15   #68
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Re: LATEST PIRATE NEWS

Bruce 626 - You forgot to say the US should also withdraw from all its free trade agreements. After all it is just an excuse to flood the country with cheap foreign made goods and costs American jobs.

Then when everything cost four times as much you put up trade barriers so people will only buy American made goods.

Oh and by the way you should probably send home all those foreign students, the're just stealing American ideas.
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Old 15-07-2012, 08:29   #69
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Re: LATEST PIRATE NEWS

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Originally Posted by mausgras View Post
Bruce 626 - You forgot to say the US should also withdraw from all its free trade agreements. After all it is just an excuse to flood the country with cheap foreign made goods and costs American jobs.

Then when everything cost four times as much you put up trade barriers so people will only buy American made goods.

Oh and by the way you should probably send home all those foreign students, the're just stealing American ideas.
Free trade is a great way to get a chicken to strech his own neck out across a hickory stump so that the one with the axe does not have to do it !!..DVC
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Old 15-07-2012, 08:30   #70
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Re: LATEST PIRATE NEWS

mausgras wrote "Bruce 626 - You forgot to say the US should also withdraw from all its free trade agreements." ==> I have no problem with bilateral free trade agreements as long as the trade is totally free both ways. However, you are correct in that I failed to mention that we should pull out of the World Bank, IMF, and World Trade Organization - and I would also withdraw from treaties that allow people to flee their home country to seek assylum more than one country away as these are mostly economic 'refugees'. They should be staying in their home country and either resisting the oppression or improving their home economy.

"Oh and by the way you should probably send home all those foreign students" ==> I have no problem with foreigners in the country who are paying their own way and have legally entered. The ten to twelve million illegals should be deported as soon as possible however.
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Old 15-07-2012, 08:34   #71
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Re: LATEST PIRATE NEWS

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You know the one where Fred Astair and Ginger Rogers come out and they do a real spiffy dance number that brings down the house...DVC
And if you want to know where the theater is going to be at just trace a circle around Hillarys latest world tour.. friends dont let friends watch Fox news or the fluff on CNN..DVC
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Old 15-07-2012, 10:05   #72
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Re: LATEST PIRATE NEWS

We are getting well off topic but since we recognise that the USA is in decline then Hillary's efforts to stop China poaching traditional markets in SE Asia is probably a waste of good US tax payers money.
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Old 15-07-2012, 11:05   #73
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Re: LATEST PIRATE NEWS

Any one crusing the Diayou islands or Scarboro Banks? I understand there are a lot of Pirates heading that way...DVC(I meant Scarboro Shoals, Maine has always had pirates!)
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Old 15-07-2012, 13:44   #74
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Re: LATEST PIRATE NEWS

The "dark" continent was a mess long before any western world citizen stepped foot on it.

The first explorers to this continent, were eaten. At least the modern hostage taking is a big improvement.
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Old 15-07-2012, 14:34   #75
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Re: LATEST PIRATE NEWS

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goboatingnow wrote "To deal with these situations you must start to fix the underlying problems, because you cannot subjugate a nation by force ( not Vietnam, not Afghanistan not anywhere ) force can mask the issues or contain them, it can't resolve them." ==> Perhaps we have some common ground here - I would like nothing better than to have the USA revert to its traditionally isolationist stance in global politics. We should close our thousand+ foreign bases and bring all of our troops home to new bases sited along our southern border. We should wind down all of our current wars and avoid starting new ones - to this end we should drop all of our 'entangling alliances' starting with NATO and including all of the other '*TO' organizations that call for a USA response to a local attack. We should end all foreign, military, economic, and disaster aid funded by the US government - NGOs can do what they like, just not with taxpayer funds illegally given away. The UN should be removed from New York and relocated to some more neutral country like Brazil or India (with a reduction in the salaries of UN bureaucrats to reflect the new cost of living expenses). And the UN Security Council (UNSC) should be reformed to allow any country to be a permanent member if said country funds 5% of the total UN budget - and if a country wants a veto, it would pay an additional 5% of the UN budget (up front at the beginning of each fiscal year). General assembly members would pay the balance of the budget evenly divided by those who want to vote (any country can participate and debate even if not paid - just not vote). I could go on, but this would get the USA out of having to police the world at US taxpayer expense.
Hmm? it was if my own fingers were typing this yet they were'nt moving My thoughts are along the same lines as what you wrote. 'Freedom' is not enforcing (militarily) a Country's 'will' on another Country IMO. Aid 'offered' through the UN is another thing. I think the UN being on US soil gives the impression they are the US's puppet or vice versa. Not a good thing IMO. The UN belongs in a 'Neutral Country' if it's going to have a PC stance.
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