Last pictures of Primadonna

[BandB]

Originally Posted by thelifenomadik

We never expected such a controversy to arise from our naive actions! The boat is a wreck, abandoned on the reefs, some 18 nautical miles away from the nearest civilization, in an anchorage populated by flamingos. No note was found on the boat. There was no anchor in the water, we found a small anchor on board and we didn't take it. It is a derelict rusty vessel beyond salvaging, the cost of trying to salvage the vessel would be much more than the vessel itself. There are huge rusty gaps on the deck of the boat and on the hull, I think i took pictures of those.

We got a bit of junk of it, as we thought it is OK. We have seen many wrecks on our way but they were all already stripped off anything useful, I wonder by whom and in what circumstances?

We thought we are lucky to be among the first ones, even though there were others before us, most probably the fishermen, already taken lots of things. The boat was a mess. We got a bunch of junk, an old windsurf board without a sail, some snorkeling gear covered in mud, used ropes and winches, some of which we had to throw away as they were broken. What we enjoyed was the experience; it is like finding something useful in the garbage and recycling it.

We had no idea of the previous issues with the crew in Oriental at the time, nor of Pat Stockwell's troubles. We are willing to help them, send them the stuff back, etc, whatever they think appropriate.

Now, I frankly regret taking anything from Primadonna, didn't expect such a big deal to arise from this. Of course we didn't think we are doing something wrong, otherwise we wouldn't brag about it in a blog, would we.

We still don't think we did something wrong, it is just unlucky that there is so much other things happening around that boat.

I have to go now, I couldn't read through all your comments, they are so many, as we were busy salvaging a couple of recent wrecks (just joking, even though not in the mood)

What is done is done, please advise what to do next.

I do respect that you've read the reactions and have now posted again regarding the event. I just find your actions to be those which if I did myself I would consider myself a thief. No point to rehash now all the reasons I disagree with your opinions but I do hope that a couple of things have come through. First, that quite a few people consider such actions dishonest, while others have no problem with them. Second, that there may be a history you don't know, even such as a family on a boat and a child got sick and they had to quickly abandon the boat. That's why declaring a boat abandoned requires a bit more than a passing fisherman. Third, that when posting a blog online anticipating the reactions of others requires quite a bit of thought. Obviously the reaction was not as you anticipated.

One other thing, as to the condition of the boat, the hull itself. I'm afraid that's pretty much it's condition when it was in Oriental and for their trip from there to the Bahamas. At least one of the many reasons it wasn't very popular in Oriental.

[socaldmax]

Originally Posted by Coops

You guys take it too much to heart. I am from the UK, living in aus, so I am called a Pom, usually "10 bob pom" by the Aussies. Now Australia is split into states like America. Here are the names that these folks are known by here. These are names that you can hear everyday in conversation, see in the news both in print and on TV.

Queenslanders- Cane Toads, banana benders.

New South Wales- Cockroaches.

Victorians- Mexicans (from down south)

South Australians-Crow Eaters.

West Australians- Sandgropers.

If anybody takes offence at these in person they just get laughed at.

Coops.

I'm not bothered by the term Yank, but it does make me think the person using the term might be a little insensitive. I'm not politically correct, every time someone says "Holiday Party" I correct them and say "Christmas Party!!"

I still say "disabled", not "differently abled." But I don't go around calling everyone in a wheelchair "wheels." That's pushing it a bit.

I think the most sensitive group around are the Native American orgs. Not the people themselves, but their representatives. The latest flap was a huge stink over a photo shoot Heidi Klum did wearing Indian garb. They went BALLISTIC over every little thing.

I think they're still a little sore about the disease ridden blankets, broken treaties and worthless beads.

[captain58sailin]

Yeah you Anglo Saxons have a great record for keeping your word.

[SaltyMonkey]

Originally Posted by BandB

I'm from NC

Now now, its a log debate whether NC is a Southern State; not only historically, but also because of all those NE transplants that settled, giving up on their migration to Florida for the winter.

[BandB]

Originally Posted by SaltyMonkey

Now now, its a log debate whether NC is a Southern State; not only historically, but also because of all those NE transplants that settled, giving up on their migration to Florida for the winter.

Well, we're in Florida now. Don't know about the human transplants giving up on the migration to Florida but a few decades ago the Sea Gulls did during an absolutely horrible period of storms. In so doing they settled for the winter on some NC lakes. Apparently the learned that it wasn't necessary to fly any further and so then they returned each year from that point forward. There are quite a few now during the winter but the old timers say there were once none.

[SaltyMonkey]

Lots of geese for sure in NC. Seen quite a few in Greensboro.

[Mambo]

Originally Posted by thelifenomadik

We never expected such a controversy to arise from our naive actions! The boat is a wreck, abandoned on the reefs, some 18 nautical miles away from the nearest civilization, in an anchorage populated by flamingos. No note was found on the boat. There was no anchor in the water, we found a small anchor on board and we didn't take it. It is a derelict rusty vessel beyond salvaging, the cost of trying to salvage the vessel would be much more than the vessel itself. There are huge rusty gaps on the deck of the boat and on the hull, I think i took pictures of those.

We got a bit of junk of it, as we thought it is OK. We have seen many wrecks on our way but they were all already stripped off anything useful, I wonder by whom and in what circumstances?

We thought we are lucky to be among the first ones, even though there were others before us, most probably the fishermen, already taken lots of things. The boat was a mess. We got a bunch of junk, an old windsurf board without a sail, some snorkeling gear covered in mud, used ropes and winches, some of which we had to throw away as they were broken. What we enjoyed was the experience; it is like finding something useful in the garbage and recycling it.

We had no idea of the previous issues with the crew in Oriental at the time, nor of Pat Stockwell's troubles. We are willing to help them, send them the stuff back, etc, whatever they think appropriate.

Now, I frankly regret taking anything from Primadonna, didn't expect such a big deal to arise from this. Of course we didn't think we are doing something wrong, otherwise we wouldn't brag about it in a blog, would we.

We still don't think we did something wrong, it is just unlucky that there is so much other things happening around that boat.

I have to go now, I couldn't read through all your comments, they are so many, as we were busy salvaging a couple of recent wrecks (just joking, even though not in the mood)

What is done is done, please advise what to do next.

I agree with the prior comments since your post. I think it is good that you came forward -- a small step but a positive one.

My first suggestion would be to think about what you do next. Clearly your blog describes the "law" incorrectly and should be changed. Bahamian law certainly doesn't support your actions -- they were not legal and your description of "wrecking" and "salvage" law should be corrected (for all the reasons others have stated).

What to do going forward? The owners of that vessel may be sitting in jail because they can't afford a ticket home or pay fines, the owners of the vessel are said to have an unpaid debt in Oriental. The value of the stuff you took from their boat might go a long way toward solving one or both of those issues. Or, the equipment might similarly go a long way toward repairing the vessel. Maybe you should write Pascal and ask him what he would prefer. You could make the choice yourself, that is sort of vigilante justice but I suppose better than none at all. If you were still in the Bahamas, I'd say you could figure out how to bring Primadonna into a harbor . . . but you left.

I think you need to recognize what you did wrong before you can really begin to correct it.

-M

[Sailorman Ed]

If you were still in the Bahamas, I'd say you could figure out how to bring Primadonna into a harbor . . . but you left.

While a good thought, this could get you into all kinds of potential trouble if the PO never checked in legally as it seems. And who would cover the morage fees? How many cars are towed and before you know it, the storage fee exceeds the value. And the end result would be just to make it easier for the locals to take stuff. Look at the theft that occurs while owners are on board. What do you think will happen to stuff on a salvaged boat? Probably the stuff is still on it because it was so far from any settlement. A donation to Pat Stockwell would be appropriate.

[Rustic Charm]

Originally Posted by Coops

You guys take it too much to heart. I am from the UK, living in aus, so I am called a Pom, usually "10 bob pom" by the Aussies. Now Australia is split into states like America. Here are the names that these folks are known by here. These are names that you can hear everyday in conversation, see in the news both in print and on TV.

Queenslanders- Cane Toads, banana benders.

New South Wales- Cockroaches.

Victorians- Mexicans (from down south)

South Australians-Crow Eaters.

West Australians- Sandgropers.

If anybody takes offence at these in person they just get laughed at.

Coops.

I'm really offended Coops, I really don't care about the Territorians, or the Canberrites, but as usual you left Taswegians out? Grrrrr

[Rustic Charm]

Originally Posted by socaldmax

A boat is like someone's house, only it moves. You live on your boat, they lived on theirs. They happen to be locked up at the moment, but that does not mean their boat is abandoned. It just means they're away from it now. A friend of mine took a 6 month vacation. Does that mean his house was abandoned and people could just walk in and take what they want? Of course not.

Everything you said about the condition of the boat, not knowing, etc is all justification for your actions. Nowhere on land or at sea is there any legal term called "finder's keeper's." Anything you appropriate from someone else without buying it, even if it's just lying on the sidewalk, is called theft. If you find a bag of money just laying on the sidewalk, regardless of how much you want it or need it, it belongs to someone else. In the US, you turn it over to the police and if no one claims it in 30 days, they give it to you.

The right thing to do is go back there and return everything that was removed, reinstall everything that was taken apart. I doubt you'll want to do that. Since the items you took appear to have a value of over $3,000 (the newer winch, as well as other items) perhaps you should send a check for $3000 to clear the debt that Pascal owed to Pat. That would be the decent thing to do.

OMG, I've not heard of anything so rediculous as a suggestion of 'reinstalling' this crap. And suggesting sending any monies to this guy Pat would be circumventing the role of the small claims courts/Tribunals. Just ignore this self righteousness and learn not to blogg about it in future and avoid a lot of hassle. Alternatively don't read or take to heart comments like this. I'm fairly certain that 99% of these self righteous posters claiming they would never even have thought of taking this abandoned property from this derelict rusty vessel! would have done exactly the same thing.

[Coops]

Originally Posted by tedsherrin

I'm really offended Coops, I really don't care about the Territorians, or the Canberrites, but as usual you left Taswegians out? Grrrrr

I could not think of any names that I have heard them called as a bunch. Character traits perhaps but no generic alternate names.

Coops.

[Rustic Charm]

Originally Posted by Coops

I could not think of any names that I have heard them called as a bunch. Character traits perhaps but no generic alternate names.

Coops.

Canberians are Yogi Bears, Territorians are Dust Eaters, and Tasmanians are Double Headers.

I had not realized Victorians were called Mexicans. Lol

[jtsailjt]

Originally Posted by tedsherrin

OMG, I've not heard of anything so rediculous as a suggestion of 'reinstalling' this crap. And suggesting sending any monies to this guy Pat would be circumventing the role of the small claims courts/Tribunals. Just ignore this self righteousness and learn not to blogg about it in future and avoid a lot of hassle. Alternatively don't read or take to heart comments like this. I'm fairly certain that 99% of these self righteous posters claiming they would never even have thought of taking this abandoned property from this derelict rusty vessel! would have done exactly the same thing.

I agree that it's silly to consider going back and reinstalling things or taking it upon themselves to tow the vessel off. It might be appropriate for them to write to Paschal and ask if he wants the items back or offer to pay him a reasonable price for the things they took from his boat.

Your being fairly certain that 99% would do the same thing is more a reflection on you and how you see the world or want to see your fellow citizens than how they actually conduct themselves. It's got to be sort of tough going through life with that opinion of others. Call it self righteous or naive or whatever else you want to but the way I look at it, there is only two kinds of property, my property and not my property. It's really just that simple. If it's property that falls into the latter category, then I won't take it or even use it without seeking permission from the owner and if I don't know who the owner is or am unable to contact him, then I obviously can't take it or use it unless it's a dire emergency. That's pretty much it and has worked just fine for me all through my adult life and somehow I've accumulated more stuff than I can use along the way. I didn't need to take anyone else's.

It might seem too bad to some to let all that stuff on Primadonna go to waste and if they feel that way, then they should do their homework and find Paschal and negotiate the best price they can with him. He's probably not in a very good position to demand top dollar right now so they could probably get a good deal and he might be grateful for the chance to raise a little cash at this point. Or, if someone felt inclined to do him a favor, they might put a padlock on his companionway and send him the combination. Personally, I wouldn't go out of my way to help him at all, but neither would I steal his stuff just because it's unguarded.

[Rustic Charm]

How many of you would fail to pick up a $1 note found on the street? Or having picked it up turn it into local police station?

$1 or $100, finding and keeping is illegal in most western countries. And yet how many of you would hand that $1 in?

How many of you finding an old beat up abandoned 70 Ford abandoned on the highway, rusting in the elements, stripped for most of its parts, miles from anywhere, but that remaining bumper is just what you could use. The rego plate is there. Someone has left it there. Maybe it was a couple who came over the Mexican border illegally and got arrested. He chose to return to Mexico, but his female companion, don't know where she is. BUT, it's still his property.

There appear two kinds of people commenting on the ethics of this. Those who look at the context and respond to the context, and those who ignore the context and maintain, 'there is property you own and property you don't '. The later liken the situation to being no different than home burglary, cutting mooring lines and stealing a boat (both cited examples).

It's absolutely ridiculous self righteousness. It was an abandoned, derelict, damaged, unsalvageable vessel left to the elements. Nothing at all wrong with what they did. . . Yeah and I know, someone will come back with the comment 'better keep my boat locked up from you', and you will prove my earlier comment avoiding the context.

Doh! I've gone back to commenting on this absolutely ridiculous dialogue.

[brownoarsman]

Totally disagree - let's even leave the ethics aside (though I'm not sure you can call a boat abandoned when its owner is apparently in a jail cell in the same country as the wreck, unable to look after his boat).

If I were the Nomadik crew, I would never, ever return to the Bahamas. Based on what Dockhead posted, if the Bahamanian authorities are aware of this event, either through their blog, this forum, or other means, they could be facing a pretty stiff jail sentence (during which time their boat would probably be left in much the same condition as Primadonna).

If they want to obey what appears to be Bahamian law, they would try to negotiate a price for what they took off Primadonna with Pascal, who is still the owner of the boat. I believe the salvage rate would probably be around 65% of market price for the removed items. They then may be able to have a token legal defense. As it is, they've broken a law with very stiff penalties - no matter the context, or what sailors on the internet think, the court will look at the law.