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Old 13-04-2014, 08:09   #46
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Re: Last pictures of Primadonna

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I'd love to see you try that argument on a judge! Lol. By your reasoning, you can steal anything you want from a house with no repurcations as long as no one is home. Because if they weren't there, how could you possibly have robbed them? Lol. This argument is solid proof that a little knowledge is in fact a very dangerous thing.

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No Kevin, you can't steel anything you want from someone's house, well, I guess you could, but if you get caught, it would be called 'stealing'..

My reasoning Kevin, do u mind if I call you Kevin? Is that it's simply not 'robbery', cause according to the law of the land, in the barhamas , some one has to be their to rob them.
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Old 13-04-2014, 08:12   #47
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Re: Last pictures of Primadonna

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Originally Posted by Cormorant View Post

At the time it didn't strike me as theft, just recycling. And it seems in a different league from the recent scavenging off of Primadonna.

But where does the line get drawn? Is there any clear time limit as to when a grounding becomes a wreck . . . becomes wreckage scattered on the sea bottom?
Not 100% sure of the accuracy of the following (from wiki), but I think it is loosely correct

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It is a legal requirement that all recovered wreck landed in the United Kingdom is reported to the Receiver of Wreck, whether recovered from within or outside UK waters and even if the finder is the owner. The Receiver of Wreck will investigate ownership. The owner has one year in which to come forward and prove title to the property. During this period it is common for the finder to hold the wreck on behalf of the Receiver of Wreck while investigations are carried out.
Wreck which remains unclaimed after a year becomes the property of the Crown and the Receiver of Wreck is required to dispose of it. Often the finder is allowed to keep items of unclaimed wreck in lieu of a salvage award.
So, you remove (salvage) stuff from a wreck, but you must report it, then if no claim is made by the owner within a year, it's likely to be yours.

Recent case in the UK was the removal of a number of BMW bikes from containers off a grounded ship. Members of the public removed the bikes, then reported the "salvage". The owners of the bike's (BMW) offered a very small reward for the return of the bikes, which the "salvors" refused to accept, ended up going to arbitration, and I have no idea of the outcome.
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Old 13-04-2014, 08:18   #48
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Re: Last pictures of Primadonna

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Ted, what those "salvagers" did meets the technical definition of piracy. Though the vessel had run aground, it was still nominally at sea. At least as far as the legal and technical definitions go. So looting the vessel, by law, would be considered an act of piracy.

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Kevin, feel like we're getting to know one another as this is the second time we have conversed.

'Technical', when it comes to the Law, is according to an Act, that's like legal jargon for The Law. Now technically 'the law', in the Barhamas is The Penal Code, to which piracy is section 404, now like 'robbery', to commit piracy, you got to do it to someone. Someone has to be present.

Now I'm not suggesting you can go into anyone's house 'on the sea' and pirate it, no I'm not, because the Penal Code, has a name for this crime and it's called 'stealing', not piracy..
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Old 13-04-2014, 08:20   #49
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Last pictures of Primadonna

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Originally Posted by tedsherrin View Post
Dave, I love how you yanks convert everything to your own country. Hope I'm not being offensive, don't mean to be. I mean maple syrup, now don't get me started on maple syrup. You know how I know your a yank dave? Cause you said 'larceny', only used in the good old USofA and NSW in Australia. But anyway, I'm getting side tracked.



The boAt was in the barhamas, which means you got to quote their law. It just so happens that section 339 of the penal code identifies what 'robbery' is, and if you check the definitions, (handy little things them definitions), you will find that robbery must have a person who is 'robbed'..



So, Robbery', it ain't...

I'm not American , and larceny is a uk legal term , for reference see the larceny act , UK 1916, pr the theft act , 1968. In England , Scotland and Wales and Ireland the term has been broken legally into robbery, fraud, theft ( and something else I can't remember ) the colonials haven't moved on it seems and still use the term in common use

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Old 13-04-2014, 08:24   #50
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Re: Last pictures of Primadonna

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
I'm not American , and larceny is a uk legal term , for reference see the larceny act , UK 1916, pr the theft act , 1968. In England , Scotland and Wales and Ireland the term has been broken legally into robbery, fraud, theft ( and something else I can't remember ) the colonials haven't moved on it seems and still use the term in common use

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Well, there you go, I though the UK did away with larceny the same time the rest of Australia did. Well except NSW.
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Old 13-04-2014, 08:27   #51
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Re: Last pictures of Primadonna

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
into robbery, fraud, theft ( and something else I can't remember ) the colonials haven't moved on it seems and still use the term in common use

Dave
Burglary i.e. Breaking and entering
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Old 13-04-2014, 08:30   #52
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Re: Last pictures of Primadonna

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Originally Posted by tedsherrin View Post
No Kevin, you can't steel anything you want from someone's house, well, I guess you could, but if you get caught, it would be called 'stealing'..

My reasoning Kevin, do u mind if I call you Kevin? Is that it's simply not 'robbery', cause according to the law of the land, in the barhamas , some one has to be their to rob them.

By the way the definition of robbery from Bahamas penal code

" “robbery” is stealing accompanied with actual vio- lence, or threats of violence to any person or property, used with intent to extort the property stolen, or to prevent or overcome resistance to its being stolen;"

http://laws.bahamas.gov.bs/cms/image...enalCode_1.pdf

Notice the term , " to any person or property "

Robbery is theft with violence. I know , my house was " robbed" , because they , the thieves , forced their way in, in court they were charged with robbery

I wasn't at home.

Break into a yacht and steal something = robbery! walk in and steal something = theft.

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Old 13-04-2014, 08:32   #53
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Re: Last pictures of Primadonna

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Originally Posted by nigel1 View Post
Burglary i.e. Breaking and entering
Burglary, (if you don't mind me chipping in, promise I won't mention my uncle) is actually both in the UK and Australia the breaking in with 'intent' to commit a crime. If you break in without any intent to commit a crime, then it's not burglary.

Doh, I mentioned my uncle. Sorry. Doh, did it again.
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Old 13-04-2014, 08:39   #54
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Re: Last pictures of Primadonna

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Originally Posted by tedsherrin View Post
Burglary, (if you don't mind me chipping in, promise I won't mention my uncle) is actually both in the UK and Australia the breaking in with 'intent' to commit a crime. If you break in without any intent to commit a crime, then it's not burglary.



Doh, I mentioned my uncle. Sorry. Doh, did it again.

Factoid, it used to be you could only be " burgled" at night. !

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Old 13-04-2014, 08:42   #55
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Re: Last pictures of Primadonna

what this thread needs now is an actual bahamian lawyer or his equivalent. as we have seen, laws vary from country to country, even when the countries are, or used to be, governed by the same laws (UK, Oz, USA, Bahamas).

at the risk of being labeled a thief and a pirate, here's my opinion, expressed purely in a practical and not a legal way.

it's on a reef off mayaguana, considered the most remote of all bahamian islands - population 300. it's already been there for several months. it's made of steel, not fiberglass or even wood, and has already begun to rust away. the crew that left it are known to be financially unable to mount any kind of salvage operation. it's entirely likely that nobody would salvage the whole yacht because it would be more expensive than it's worth. the only thing worth anything on this yacht is it's contents. so, before it really all goes to davy jones' locker, what's the harm in some other sailor removing still usable items that they or someone else might need. if they really want to be good people maybe they can locate the owners and offer to ship those removed items to them if they pay the freight costs.

ok, call me names - i've already put up my anti-name-calling shield....
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Old 13-04-2014, 08:49   #56
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Re: Last pictures of Primadonna

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
By the way the definition of robbery from Bahamas penal code

" “robbery” is stealing accompanied with actual vio- lence, or threats of violence to any person or property, used with intent to extort the property stolen, or to prevent or overcome resistance to its being stolen;"

http://laws.bahamas.gov.bs/cms/image...enalCode_1.pdf

Notice the term , " to any person or property "

Robbery is theft with violence. I know , my house was " robbed" , because they , the thieves , forced their way in, in court they were charged with robbery

I wasn't at home.

Break into a yacht and steal something = robbery! walk in and steal something = theft.

Dave


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Dave, now we're really conversing. That's the PenAl Code alright, but you got to know how to read it as well. You see, when it says 'person or property', it's not like 'threaten THE property', or violence to the property, if you think about it, that's a bit ridiculous, 'hey you boat, I'm gonna knife your hull, so just sit there whilst I rob you'! Lol. Get my drift.

You got to read it in the context, the violence or threats is to 'a person' and can include threats or violence against a persons property.

And if your from the UK, and if your thieves were charged with 'robbery', which I doubt, it would have been because they were 'armed' at the time, not because they 'threatened or assaulted' your house. I think it more likely they were charged with aggravated burglary, which means they broke into your house with the intent of committing a crime and they were armed in someway.

But again, this did not happen in the UK, it happened in the Barhamas. And there was no suggestion they 'broke in', they trespassed and stole, yes, but they did not 'rob' it. Nit under Barhamas law or UK law.
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Old 13-04-2014, 08:53   #57
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Re: Last pictures of Primadonna

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what this thread needs now is an actual bahamian lawyer or his equivalent. as we have seen, laws vary from country to country, even when the countries are, or used to be, governed by the same laws (UK, Oz, USA, Bahamas).

at the risk of being labeled a thief and a pirate, here's my opinion, expressed purely in a practical and not a legal way.

it's on a reef off mayaguana, considered the most remote of all bahamian islands - population 300. it's already been there for several months. it's made of steel, not fiberglass or even wood, and has already begun to rust away. the crew that left it are known to be financially unable to mount any kind of salvage operation. it's entirely likely that nobody would salvage the whole yacht because it would be more expensive than it's worth. the only thing worth anything on this yacht is it's contents. so, before it really all goes to davy jones' locker, what's the harm in some other sailor removing still usable items that they or someone else might need. if they really want to be good people maybe they can locate the owners and offer to ship those removed items to them if they pay the freight costs.

ok, call me names - i've already put up my anti-name-calling shield....
I'm with you 100%, but I was enjoying the legal conversing .
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Old 13-04-2014, 09:01   #58
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Re: Last pictures of Primadonna

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Originally Posted by onestepcsy37 View Post
what this thread needs now is an actual bahamian lawyer or his equivalent. as we have seen, laws vary from country to country, even when the countries are, or used to be, governed by the same laws (UK, Oz, USA, Bahamas).

at the risk of being labeled a thief and a pirate, here's my opinion, expressed purely in a practical and not a legal way.

it's on a reef off mayaguana, considered the most remote of all bahamian islands - population 300. it's already been there for several months. it's made of steel, not fiberglass or even wood, and has already begun to rust away. the crew that left it are known to be financially unable to mount any kind of salvage operation. it's entirely likely that nobody would salvage the whole yacht because it would be more expensive than it's worth. the only thing worth anything on this yacht is it's contents. so, before it really all goes to davy jones' locker, what's the harm in some other sailor removing still usable items that they or someone else might need. if they really want to be good people maybe they can locate the owners and offer to ship those removed items to them if they pay the freight costs.

ok, call me names - i've already put up my anti-name-calling shield....

I absolutely disagree. The vessel seemed to have most of its gear intact. The only knowledge the thief had, was some local said it was abandoned.

My neighbour seems to be away for months, his car is next door, ( on the public street ) next time you call around, I'll mention it seems " abandoned " , sure that's fine, take the stereo.

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Old 13-04-2014, 09:03   #59
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Re: Last pictures of Primadonna

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Dave, now we're really conversing. That's the PenAl Code alright, but you got to know how to read it as well. You see, when it says 'person or property', it's not like 'threaten THE property', or violence to the property, if you think about it, that's a bit ridiculous, 'hey you boat, I'm gonna knife your hull, so just sit there whilst I rob you'! Lol. Get my drift.



You got to read it in the context, the violence or threats is to 'a person' and can include threats or violence against a persons property.



And if your from the UK, and if your thieves were charged with 'robbery', which I doubt, it would have been because they were 'armed' at the time, not because they 'threatened or assaulted' your house. I think it more likely they were charged with aggravated burglary, which means they broke into your house with the intent of committing a crime and they were armed in someway.



But again, this did not happen in the UK, it happened in the Barhamas. And there was no suggestion they 'broke in', they trespassed and stole, yes, but they did not 'rob' it. Nit under Barhamas law or UK law.

Dont know, I'll ask my daugther, she's a barrister

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Old 13-04-2014, 09:03   #60
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Re: Last pictures of Primadonna

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Factoid, it used to be you could only be " burgled" at night. !

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Yes, used to be the same here. I think it had something to do with 'night time' being considered aggravation, so if you broke into a house at night it was considered more serious than the day time given the likelihood of someone being home. Something along those lines from memory.
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