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Old 16-04-2014, 12:26   #256
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Re: Last pictures of Primadonna

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Originally Posted by Jammer Six View Post
Oh, good, the Strut & Pose phase.

Not so much.

Just noting a personal flaw and I'm sure there are people with much worse personal flaws. "Shoot first, ask questions later." There are plenty of people who shoot at thieves.
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Old 16-04-2014, 14:50   #257
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Re: Last pictures of Primadonna

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BnB makes a good, but not often touched upon point about safety.

If I found people stealing my things like that, I'd probably get into a major confrontation with them, which would end with them putting everything back, by free will or at gunpoint, or getting killed if they refused to put my stuff back (where legal, such as in Florida).

Not one to call police because people can get away.

It's very dangerous to put kids in the middle of a scenario like that.
Actually, it's not legal to shoot in defence of property in Florida. It's only legal to defend yourself or another person from a perceived deadly threat.
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Old 16-04-2014, 15:43   #258
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Re: Last pictures of Primadonna

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Not so much.
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Old 16-04-2014, 17:21   #259
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Re: Last pictures of Primadonna

The chance that the Primadonna crew will ever return to the vessel is almost non-existent. I don't think the original poster knew this, but it is still the reality of the situation.

Chris

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A boat is like someone's house, only it moves. You live on your boat, they lived on theirs. They happen to be locked up at the moment, but that does not mean their boat is abandoned. It just means they're away from it now. A friend of mine took a 6 month vacation. Does that mean his house was abandoned and people could just walk in and take what they want? Of course not.

Everything you said about the condition of the boat, not knowing, etc is all justification for your actions. Nowhere on land or at sea is there any legal term called "finder's keeper's." Anything you appropriate from someone else without buying it, even if it's just lying on the sidewalk, is called theft. If you find a bag of money just laying on the sidewalk, regardless of how much you want it or need it, it belongs to someone else. In the US, you turn it over to the police and if no one claims it in 30 days, they give it to you.

The right thing to do is go back there and return everything that was removed, reinstall everything that was taken apart. I doubt you'll want to do that. Since the items you took appear to have a value of over $3,000 (the newer winch, as well as other items) perhaps you should send a check for $3000 to clear the debt that Pascal owed to Pat. That would be the decent thing to do.
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Old 16-04-2014, 18:46   #260
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Re: Last pictures of Primadonna

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OMG, I've not heard of anything so rediculous as a suggestion of 'reinstalling' this crap. And suggesting sending any monies to this guy Pat would be circumventing the role of the small claims courts/Tribunals. Just ignore this self righteousness and learn not to blogg about it in future and avoid a lot of hassle. Alternatively don't read or take to heart comments like this. I'm fairly certain that 99% of these self righteous posters claiming they would never even have thought of taking this abandoned property from this derelict rusty vessel! would have done exactly the same thing.
I'm 100% certain you have your mouth and your colon confused.
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Old 16-04-2014, 19:00   #261
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Re: Last pictures of Primadonna

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Actually, it's not legal to shoot in defence of property in Florida. It's only legal to defend yourself or another person from a perceived deadly threat.
"Yes, that is my chef's knife in the hand of that thief that I shot twice in the forehead while protecting myself."
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Old 16-04-2014, 19:29   #262
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Re: Last pictures of Primadonna

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I'm fairly certain that 99% of these self righteous posters claiming they would never even have thought of taking this abandoned property from this derelict rusty vessel! would have done exactly the same thing.
If you really believe that then I feel very sad for you. Perhaps it was your career as a policeman primarily dealing with criminals that tainted your viewpoint so. I can see how that would happen. Except the vast majority of us have never had any encounter with law enforcement, have never been arrested or even questioned. So we are not the ones you dealt with. And honest people are still in the great majority.

Most of us have been in situations that would test our moral compass at some point in our life and the majority have in those situations chosen to do the right, honest thing. I believe in myself and my fellow man.

When you were in law enforcement would you have felt the same way regarding someone seeing a rusted bike sitting in a lot just taking it and riding it away? Or stealing the horn and light? Or would you then have expected them to report it and it be taken to lost and found? That rusted bike might also have been precious to the kid who lost it.
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Old 16-04-2014, 20:11   #263
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Re: Last pictures of Primadonna

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Originally Posted by witzgall View Post
The chance that the Primadonna crew will ever return to the vessel is almost non-existent. I don't think the original poster knew this, but it is still the reality of the situation.

Chris
i'm the original poster. i don't recall commenting on the return of the primadonna crew in the original post.

i have however, subsequently commented that it would be extremely unlikely that they would return to the boat and that, being where it is, it would probably remain there to rust away. there are any number of rusting hulks in the bahamas including one that sits square on the beach in bimini - a place so close to civilization that you would think it would have been salvaged years ago.

in spite of all the moral rhetoric posted here, i think the crew of nomadik did the practical thing. it's pretty much certain to me that the gear would have wound up on either someone else's boat or in davy jones'. i believe that, if the nomadik crew had come upon primadonna when it was in distress, they would have done all they could to help, as would i and everyone else here.

i never commented on the french couple getting what they deserved; while i believe in karma i don't believe in gloating over someone else's bad fortune...
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Old 16-04-2014, 20:16   #264
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Re: Last pictures of Primadonna

@thelifenomadik Personally I am glad you have the belly to front up and make yourself known and comment here. Good for you! Though you may not like what I have to say...

You can justify as much as you like, but here are the facts:

1. You took things that did not belong to you...
2. ... things that you really had no great need for, no emergency requirement...
3. ... things that you could probably afford to purchase yourself (based on my assumption of your financial status from your boat, blog photos and stories) if you really needed them
4. If you took some time to do basic research, instead of self-justifying your actions, you would clearly understand that what you did was breaking the law and certainly not classed in any way as "salvage" according to maritime law

IMO from a pure philosophical and moral perspective, it is wrong to take things that are not yours; because you have neither made them, need them, nor sacrificed your time in exchange for money to purchase them. How can you justify involving a child in this questionable moral behaviour and what example does that set for a young mind?

To make it all more galling, you boast about it on your blog and further attempt to justify stealing online. It is in this situation, stealing pure and simple. Do you not think maybe the poor local fishermen have a greater need for items on the derelict boat than you? Of course they would then also be stealing, but possibly at a lower moral cost because of their greater need?

Don't think I'm judging you, you have your reasons and maybe I cannot understand or know the full background. But in putting it all online, with the wonders of modern technology you have created an audience with the power to express their opinion of you.


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Old 16-04-2014, 20:26   #265
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Re: Last pictures of Primadonna

.. what to do next:
Quote:
Originally Posted by socaldmax View Post
perhaps you should send a check for $3000 to clear the debt that Pascal owed to Pat. That would be the decent thing to do.
Yes, of course!

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Old 16-04-2014, 21:08   #266
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Re: Last pictures of Primadonna

Nomadtik, you get my respect for posting on the forum, and now should understand that what you did was not right. To make up for it, can you look into the status of the boat owners? See what the bahama gov can tell us?
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Old 17-04-2014, 08:14   #267
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Re: Last pictures of Primadonna

Take a look at the charts and see where Booby Cay, Mayaguana is; try to find the nearest settlement; try to organize a salvage operation (even if you are a government official you will not do it). Take a look at that image and tell me it is not a wreck, not abandoned; tel me it is worth preserving this heavy metal boat and everything on it "intact" for ever and ever; or trying to salvage the boat itself??

Primadona - s/v Primadonna near Booby Cay Cruisers & Sailing Photo Gallery

(There are 4 more wrecks in the same anchorage, two of them are huge commercial boats sitting on the east reefs. )


What if we had found Primadonna after say 2 years, and there was nothing left but a rusty hull? And we decide to take the last winch? would that be any different? Is it wrong to take used things from the garbage? We didn't take anything before being sure the boat IS a wreck and abandoned. It has nothing to do with breaking into someone's house.

Primadonna is beyond salvaging. The Bahamian government knows about the wreck since they arrested the crew and apparently they hasn't done nothing but leave the boat to "the elements". She will slowly get stripped off everything useful by local fishermen or passer-bys without much fuss (we took a few things, there is a lot more left), and it will not be the first time this is happening in the Bahamas or anywhere else.

We are teaching our children not to be consumers, not to constantly buy stuff, but to reuse. Our furniture when we had a house, our clothes are used ones and we take pride in it. We are not ashamed to take things from the garbage, we consider this 'helping the environment', saving things from the dumpster. And we are not hobos. We are normal peope with university education who are on a journey of alternative living, volunteering everywhere we go, trying to live a less consumer-oriented lifestyle, and yes, teach our children.

We cleaned a beach from dead fish after a red tide in Florida. Red Tide Disaster | The Life NomadikThe Life Nomadik

We worked as volunteers at farmer's markets for fruits and vegetables
The Pineapple Volunteers. Our Life in the City Park. Part 2 | The Life NomadikThe Life Nomadik

We worked as volunteers in a Museum only to have access to art
Volunteering at The Dali Museum | The Life NomadikThe Life Nomadik

We volunteered at a local food bank in Florida...for food
The Star Of The Sea | The Life NomadikThe Life Nomadik

We got involved with an indigenous community in Guatemala whose land is being exploited and poluted by a foreign palm oil corporation, trying to help expose their suffering to the world (but who cares about some indigenous people in Guatemala; people are more interested in property and who takes it...)
Secrets of the Mountains | The Life NomadikThe Life Nomadik

We worked for about a week, without payment, as volunteers, to help repair a damaged historical site in Bahamas
Father Jerome's Via Dolorosa | The Life NomadikThe Life Nomadik


Do you guys what for us to go to jail for some used winches? Will that make you happy?

No, we did not break in someones home, we took things from the garbage, our conscious is clean; if you so much hate us by now, bring the charges, please, or drop it.
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Old 17-04-2014, 08:55   #268
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Re: Last pictures of Primadonna

Quote:
Originally Posted by thelifenomadik View Post
Take a look at the charts and see where Booby Cay, Mayaguana is; try to find the nearest settlement; try to organize a salvage operation (even if you are a government official you will not do it). Take a look at that image and tell me it is not a wreck, not abandoned; tel me it is worth preserving this heavy metal boat and everything on it "intact" for ever and ever; or trying to salvage the boat itself??

Primadona - s/v Primadonna near Booby Cay Cruisers & Sailing Photo Gallery

(There are 4 more wrecks in the same anchorage, two of them are huge commercial boats sitting on the east reefs. )


What if we had found Primadonna after say 2 years, and there was nothing left but a rusty hull? And we decide to take the last winch? would that be any different? Is it wrong to take used things from the garbage? We didn't take anything before being sure the boat IS a wreck and abandoned. It has nothing to do with breaking into someone's house.

Primadonna is beyond salvaging. The Bahamian government knows about the wreck since they arrested the crew and apparently they hasn't done nothing but leave the boat to "the elements". She will slowly get stripped off everything useful by local fishermen or passer-bys without much fuss (we took a few things, there is a lot more left), and it will not be the first time this is happening in the Bahamas or anywhere else.

We are teaching our children not to be consumers, not to constantly buy stuff, but to reuse. Our furniture when we had a house, our clothes are used ones and we take pride in it. We are not ashamed to take things from the garbage, we consider this 'helping the environment', saving things from the dumpster. And we are not hobos. We are normal peope with university education who are on a journey of alternative living, volunteering everywhere we go, trying to live a less consumer-oriented lifestyle, and yes, teach our children.

We cleaned a beach from dead fish after a red tide in Florida. Red Tide Disaster | The Life NomadikThe Life Nomadik

We worked as volunteers at farmer's markets for fruits and vegetables
The Pineapple Volunteers. Our Life in the City Park. Part 2 | The Life NomadikThe Life Nomadik

We worked as volunteers in a Museum only to have access to art
Volunteering at The Dali Museum | The Life NomadikThe Life Nomadik

We volunteered at a local food bank in Florida...for food
The Star Of The Sea | The Life NomadikThe Life Nomadik

We got involved with an indigenous community in Guatemala whose land is being exploited and poluted by a foreign palm oil corporation, trying to help expose their suffering to the world (but who cares about some indigenous people in Guatemala; people are more interested in property and who takes it...)
Secrets of the Mountains | The Life NomadikThe Life Nomadik

We worked for about a week, without payment, as volunteers, to help repair a damaged historical site in Bahamas
Father Jerome's Via Dolorosa | The Life NomadikThe Life Nomadik


Do you guys what for us to go to jail for some used winches? Will that make you happy?

No, we did not break in someones home, we took things from the garbage, our conscious is clean; if you so much hate us by now, bring the charges, please, or drop it.
We don't hate you although this rant didn't do anything to make us want to embrace you. But hate is not something either of us carries with us often or feels often for our fellow human beings. We don't hate those who have done things to us over the years even. Simply we do believe that what you did was wrong and something you had no right to do. It's that simple. We're not bringing charges. None of us have ever suggested we were or were in position to do so. As far as dropping it, afraid that's not your call. You made it a matter for public discussion in posting it on your blog, one which is public in nature. All those other things you've done are good things but while they may have relevance to your basic character, they have no relevance to whether this particular action was right or wrong.

You may continue to believe what you did was right and that's your right to do so. Those of us who think otherwise will continue to do so. However, your are being a bit of a revisionist in this post and describing the boat in a much different light than you did on your blog which appears more to combat the criticism. Saying the Bahamian government knew about it, talking about whether the owners would return or not has no relevance as you didn't know that at the time. Even you at the time didn't immediately recognize it as abandoned and no one returning. You noted the cell phone still active. The boat wasn't derelict in the sense of the hull being compromised. Whether it's worth salvaging or not isn't especially relevant either as in very little different condition than it is now, it was their home. There are many people in this world who have homes I wouldn't consider livable, but it's all they have and still wouldn't be right for me to take it away from them. You have no way of knowing that the owners aren't free and looking for their boat now. Perhaps it has been moved from where they initially left it and they lack the means to have located it. The speculation is they're gone but no one really knows that and you certainly didn't know it at the time. You only had actual knowledge that the owners had been gone at least one day. Other than that you had the word of passing fishermen that they were gone and it was ok to loot their boat. Honestly, in reading your blog that information seemed important to you not in determining legal rights but in assessing whether they were likely to return while you looted their boat. You now say you "consider it helping the environment" but you didn't express that or act like that was your motivation at all in your blog post. Frankly, it looked like you were doing it for fun and profit. There was no, "I'm doing this to save the environment." Had that been your intent you wouldn't have been so selective in what you took and would have taken the boat.

I'd moved on from this subject but you've opened it back up so just responding to your post. What if you'd come upon it two years later and there was nothing but a rusty nail? Then I guess you wouldn't have "wrecked" it and you wouldn't have been blogging and taking photos and saying "look at me, I wrecked this boat. Look at my loot."

What might or might not have happened in the future isn't really the issue. The fact is that for those of us who disagree with your action, we believe it was someone else's property that you had no right to take.

We're not saying you are a horrible person, beyond salvage and we're not "wrecking" you. We're simply stating that we disagree with this single action on your part.

I'm sure if I published my life story on a blog there would be actions I've taken you'd disagree with. I haven't taken things that didn't belong to me but I sure don't claim to have never made a mistake nor do I claim that everyone would agree with everything I've done in my life. But I haven't published those details. You did. In doing so you subjected yourself to criticism.

So that basically sums it up. I don't hate you. I don't condemn your entire life. I don't judge you as a person on the totality of your life. I simply disagree with your one action and your characterization of it. I personally would not take other's things, period. And I certainly wouldn't post in an internet blog photos and comments of doing so. That simply amounts to a difference of opinion we have on what is right and wrong in this situation. Nothing more, nothing less.

You don't have to justify your actions to us. But you might continue in your own way and in your own time to re-evaluate them yourselves based on the responses of others to them. Was this all worth it? Did you make any mistakes or regret any part of it? Next time will you do the same? I don't seek answers to that as those are rhetorical questions that you only need to consider yourself. Then just move on. That may or may not change what you do next time.
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Old 17-04-2014, 09:45   #269
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Re: Last pictures of Primadonna

Just for information, I did just locate the Bahamian laws applicable to abandoned wrecks. There is actually a position in the Bahamas called the "Receiver of Wreck":

Wrecks, Salvage and Scuttling of Ships

All wrecks, inclusive of abandoned vessels are subject to provisions of the Merchant Shipping Act concerned with wrecks found in The Bahamas. The definition of ‘wreck’ is extremely important to note. Section 2 of the Merchant Shipping Act defines ‘wrecks’ as:

“wreck” includes flotsam, jetsam, lagan and derelict found in, or on the shores of, the sea or of any tidal water; the whole or any portion of the ship lost, abandoned, stranded or in distress; any portion of cargo, stores or equipment of such a ship; any portion of the personal property on board such a ship when it was lost, stranded, abandoned or in distress; but does not include wreck to which the Abandoned Wreck Act applies.

It is quite evident that the definition of wreck is broad, and persons should note the definition.

The Merchant Shipping Act specifies procedures which must be followed when persons take possession of wrecks as defined by the Merchant Shipping Act.

Section 223 (1) of the Merchant Shipping Act states:

Whenever any person takes possession of any wreck in The Bahamas, he shall as soon as possible deliver the wreck to the receiver; but the Minister may dispense with any such delivery in the case of any wreck upon such conditions as he thinks fit.

Provisions within the law mandate that all wrecks must be delivered to the Receiver of Wreck. Persons are entitled to claim wrecks, inclusive of abandoned vessels. The Receiver of Wreck is then responsible for trying to locate the owner, and dispose of the wreck if necessary. Persons who salve wrecks are entitled to claim a salvage reward. The Receiver of Wreck is Captain Anthony Allens- the Port Controller of the Port Department.

As the Crown is the owner of the seabed, all persons wishing to scuttle vessels should seek approval from the authorities. Provisions within law stipulate that authorities are empowered to order that scuttled vessels, which pose a risk to navigation etc, are removed at the owner’s expense. Section 13 of the Port Authorities Act is also very important. One of the powers and duties bestowed upon a port authority is the duty/power
to appoint places where all wrecks are to be laid on shore or sunk in the ocean.

Section 230 of the Merchant Shipping Act provides provisions where stranded or abandoned vessels in port areas – if deemed necessary- may be removed at the owners' expense. The Minister (responsible for maritime affairs) is empowered to order the removal of stranded or abandoned vessels- at the owners’ expense- in waters of The Bahamas.

[COLOR="rgb(65, 105, 225)"]Then just for information but not relevant to this case is the law for those abandoned over 50 years:[/COLOR]

Abandoned Wreck Act

International law via the United Nations Convention on Law of the Sea 1982 places a duty upon States to protect objects of an archaeological and historical nature. The Abandoned Wreck Act governs the removal and salvage of archaeological and historical objects.

Section 2 of the Abandoned Wreck Act defined ‘ abandoned wreck’ as:

“ abandoned wreck” means any wreck which has remained continuously upon the sea-bed within the limits of The Bahamas for a period of fifty years or upwards before being brought to shore.

The claims of all persons to abandoned wreck are barred and the property of the wreck is vested in The Crown. No person is permitted to salve and bring to shore abandoned wreck without the proper licence/agreement issued by the Minister responsible for Maritime Affairs- see Sections 3 and 4.

Persons who fail to adhere to the provisions of this act may be liable to criminal prosecution.
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Old 17-04-2014, 09:48   #270
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Re: Last pictures of Primadonna

Nomadik, while I applaud your prior acts of charity and helping others in time of need, the fact remains that stole from other people. By your own admission the items you took were worth thousands of dollars. Every country in the world considers that a felony. An Admiral in the British Royal Navy once said, "It takes 400 years to build a tradition, but only one day to destroy it." Your prior acts built you and your family a good reputation. However, that was destroyed in one day when you decided to steal property that belongs to others. A lifetime of prior good reads does not excuse criminal behavior. The fact that you feel compelled to continue to justify your actions should tell you that, deep down, you know what you did was wrong.

Look, what's done is done. But yoy now have an opportunity to make it right. Do we expect you to return everything to the boat? No. But you could offer to say, settle Pascals debt to Pat in exchange for the items you took.

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