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Old 14-04-2014, 07:14   #136
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Re: Last pictures of Primadonna

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Originally Posted by Horror Hotel View Post
You seem to be confused by my statement and the cops response. What I stated was correct. Pat simply cashed a check, it was a scam (con job). Pascal did not buy anything or get any products from the deal, just cash for a fake check . Pat was just being a super nice guy and pascal took advantage of him. Not that this matters in the least, but if you going to tell me I'm wrong try to at least be correct. I talked to pascal for some time before the big rip went down and have shopped at Pats store many times. I was really hoping he would get paid back. I don't think that nomadik has made out so well that he's somehow now incurred the debts of pascal.
I don't understand if you're trying to say a con job is not as bad as another theft in your mind or what. He actually deposited a third party check in Pat's account and Pat gave him the money. While reasonable people believe he knew the check was fake when he gave it to Pat, which would have made it a criminal act, the local police didn't feel they could prove so or didn't go to the effort to prove so. Therefore, no crime was charged and it had to be pursued through civil court. Of course then Pascal could escape the jurisdiction before any problem from that developed. In addition his wife was arrested for shoplifting while in town and they otherwise begged there way for other gifts and money from many others. There were no criminal warrants outstanding from Oriental for Pascal and his civil con (and any court action related) is not an act for whom one is even extradited from another state, much less another country.

As to where they are now, there has been speculation they were repatriated to France but no actual confirmation of that from any reliable source. The last known information was they were in Bahama waters having failed to clear so their boat was taken to shore and anchored as it is now and they were taken to town by law enforcement. If you or anyone has a reliable source of what happened beyond that, I'd be very interested in a link to it.
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Old 14-04-2014, 07:23   #137
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Re: Last pictures of Primadonna

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You're right - I should be more specific in my question. If, given that the 'finders-keepers' rule is bogus, and the original owner maintains ownership rights all over the world, no matter in what condition the boat is in or where it is found, do the differences between these two cases matter at all?
Differences are important. I don't know the other specific case mentioned in this thread, but there are abandonment laws just as there are on land. Quite a few boats have been declared abandoned in Key West. However, for the most part that still hasn't led to value. In fact, since these boats have not been seaworthy the obligation to dispose has often been on the marina where they were abandoned. In some of these cases ads have been run on Craigslist or ebay selling them cheap or they've been given to homeless or sold for a dollar to pass the burden of disposal. One homeless man then was helped away from the dock, ran into trouble, called for help, was taken from the boat and it was left to sink. But this boat was not abandoned at sea. It was abandoned on land or in a marina and subject to the laws of Florida in that regard.

I have dealt in the past with abandoned cars in parking lots and the procedure is well defined and quite a few rules to be followed, but at no time is it subject to a free for all of wrecking. Upon complying with the rule, the property owner has it towed. The tow owner then ultimately ends up with a lien for unpaid tow and storage and then sells it either as a car or junk to recover part of their fees.
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Old 14-04-2014, 07:43   #138
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Re: Last pictures of Primadonna

Apologies - I found the original report on the attempted salvage on Wolfhound and linked it here. Contrary to my faulty memory, the salvager did not strip gear off Wolfhound, instead choosing to cut it loose and leave the boat intact when it became clear the salvage was unachievable.

I've edited my original post to correct for my inaccuracies. This post probably provides a good counterpoint for how a salvage (or 'wrecking') should be done, however.
Wolfhound (Day 55) | oceanresearchproject.org

* I actually can't edit my original post, so please forgive the inaccuracies found there.
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Old 14-04-2014, 08:00   #139
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Re: Last pictures of Primadonna

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Yeah that's what seems strange to me. Even that the local fishermen said "it has been abandoned, take anything you want..."

Who are they to give authority to anyone, and also, why has the boat been left untouched for so long? Obviously for a reason. Fishermen would have stripped that thing clean if it weren't the case. The scrap metal alone on a steel boat would bring in some dough I would imagine. Something just doesn't add up to me.

The fact that these people POSTED about it on a blog, as if bragging about it like they're going exploring ("wrecking"), is downright hilarious. I had to say I laughed at the photo of the guy posing in the salon. Was his wife like smile babe!
I'm surprised there is anything left on the boat. I have seen boats stripped bare in the Bahamas within hours of going seriously aground.

If they are in violation of International Maritime/Bahamian law then they could regret those blog posts.
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Old 14-04-2014, 08:04   #140
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Re: Last pictures of Primadonna

Lots of speculation here, but does anyone actually know the applicable law? International and Bahamian?
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Old 14-04-2014, 08:23   #141
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Re: Last pictures of Primadonna

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Lots of speculation here, but does anyone actually know the applicable law? International and Bahamian?
I would like to hear from a Bahamian lawyer. Everyone else is just speculating and guessing.
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Old 14-04-2014, 08:31   #142
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Re: Last pictures of Primadonna

Belize Sailor -
I have no idea what Bahamian law is on the subject. However, International Maritime law is very well developed and focuses on principals of salvage. Salvage does nothing like Nomadik suggests -- it does not divest the owner of property from his ownership. Instead, it rewards someone for saving that property based on equitable principals that the law uses to *imply* a contract between the salvagor and the vessel owner. So, if Nomadik had towed Primmadonna off the reef and into port, he would have had an equitable claim to be paid based on the value he saved. If Primmadonna had been unwilling or unable to pay that claim, then Nomadik would have had the right to either ask Pascal to sign over Primmadonna or to go to court for an order doing so. Here, however, Nomadik simply stripped a vessel he didn't own, rendering it less seaworthy and damaged. I have essentially no doubt this was a crime under Bahamian and / or international law.
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Old 14-04-2014, 08:34   #143
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Re: Last pictures of Primadonna

It appears that 50 years after it has sunk, the property ownership vests in the King (who might let you have some if you clean up the mess)

http://laws.bahamas.gov.bs/cms/image...WreckAct_1.pdf
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Old 14-04-2014, 09:00   #144
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Re: Last pictures of Primadonna

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Originally Posted by Mambo View Post
It appears that 50 years after it has sunk, the property ownership vests in the King (who might let you have some if you clean up the mess)

http://laws.bahamas.gov.bs/cms/image...WreckAct_1.pdf
Oh, and for the non-lawyers, the importance of the fact that after 50 years ownership of property (abandoned wrecks) at the bottom of the ocean transfer to the crown is this: UNTIL THEN IT IS STILL THE PROPERTY OF THE VESSEL OWNER! Take it and you are a thief.

-M
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Old 14-04-2014, 09:27   #145
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Re: Last pictures of Primadonna

well well, i guess those bloggers are in for jail treats. Whoz gonna do diligence and turn them in?
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Old 14-04-2014, 09:40   #146
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Re: Last pictures of Primadonna

Mambo's link makes it pretty clear that stripping anything at all off the Primadonna was illegal. The "finders, keepers" defense just doesn't cut it, but it's unlikely that there will be any consequences.

A similar situation happened in Nevis when I lived there. A sailboat foundered on a reef about 200 yards offshore just at sundown. The three crew, from Dominica, put out two anchors, then swam ashore, where they were promptly arrested for illegally entering the country. They spent a night in jail in their wet clothes, and then were released to the care of some ex-pats who had sympathy for them. By sun up the day after the grounding, the boat had been stripped by the locals of anything that could be removed.

A couple of friends of mine had the idea of salvaging the boat itself. It was determined that the owner in Dominica didn't want to be troubled with recovering it. They applied to the Nevis Receiver of Wrecks for permission to remove the boat from the reef and refloat it. The R of W delayed deciding for weeks. He finally agreed to the salvage, but only if a long list of onerous requirements, including an environmental damage bond, could be met. In the meantime, the wind and waves destroyed the boat completely. I snorkeled the area and found pieces of fiberglass and other debris spread all over the bottom.

No one was ever charged with theft for stealing the removable items on the boat, and the government official responsible for protecting wrecked vessels essentially ensured it's destruction through bureaucratic inaction. That's pretty much how things go in the islands.
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Old 14-04-2014, 09:54   #147
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Re: Last pictures of Primadonna

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well well, i guess those bloggers are in for jail treats. Whoz gonna do diligence and turn them in?
The problem is that Nomadik is now in the Dominican Republic.
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Old 14-04-2014, 09:58   #148
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Re: Last pictures of Primadonna

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Oh dear, thieving plain and simple.
I was in Antigua, talking with the owner of a local school. He told me of a time he was sailing by a beach and saw a boat washed up there. He sailed home, got his barge with a crane, sailed back to the beach and recovered the boat, fixed it up and sold it.

Such activities have taken place for eons. If you abandon your boat in the someplace like Mayagana, without an indication that you want it left alone. You are leaving it there for everyone else.

Why I keep mine safely locked in my back yard, except when sailing

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Old 14-04-2014, 10:41   #149
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Re: Last pictures of Primadonna

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I was in Antigua, talking with the owner of a local school. He told me of a time he was sailing by a beach and saw a boat washed up there. He sailed home, got his barge with a crane, sailed back to the beach and recovered the boat, fixed it up and sold it.

Such activities have taken place for eons. If you abandon your boat in the someplace like Mayagana, without an indication that you want it left alone. You are leaving it there for everyone else.

Why I keep mine safely locked in my back yard, except when sailing

Regards
You're right that things like that take place. Cars get stolen every day. Houses broken into. Thinks shoplifted. Just because it is or has been done doesn't make any part of it right or legal.

Now we use marinas more than anchoring but incidents like this don't have to be stretched far for boats in anchorages to be treated the same by those like the villains here. They would have had no rights had they known the facts, but the reality is that not knowing made what they did even worse. They had no reason not to believe the people were coming back at the time they did it. In fact, many things they found gave indications they were coming back.

As an aside, was anyone else surprised by the surfboard? I don't see Pascal and his friend as surfers for some reason. But they could be or could have been a treasure they found along the way as they have been known in the past to pick up things that didn't belong to them.
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Old 14-04-2014, 11:06   #150
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I hope one day god forbid, you don't find yourself with nothing and trying to survive. Some of my ancestors were transported to Oz for stealing bread, perhaps you might like to consider why people steal bread.

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