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Old 19-04-2010, 04:40   #121
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I do not see any point in comparing length just as I do not see any point in comparing new prices. For most cruisers remember this is a cruisers site are looking for a boat they can afford. The boat must be big enough to live comfortably and house the usual mod cons not washing machines. Water maker, generator, life raft etc. A new boat is usually out of the question mono included so what cat will fit the bill at a compareable price and yes the mono will be old but none of the older style cats I see are really suited in fact most seem to be horrible home built rubbish that no self respecting cat lover would be seen dead in much less a mono convert. Some years ago I read that the most common size for a cruising boat world wide was 37ft allthough I would question that size to me around 40-45 seems more likely but they were the stats so they must be right?
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Old 19-04-2010, 04:57   #122
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Originally Posted by meyermm View Post
Would I buy a cat? Yes if the price was compareable
A well thought out and well written post which raises the number 1 point when considering a cruising catamaran. Price. As for speed, I would agree with your post.

Talbot points out the comparison between monos and catamarans should be at roughly x1.5 the length of the Cat. In addition the amount of storage between the two styles of boat is considerable as catamaran designs have lots of storage.

If you consider a 40 foot mono adequate for your requirements, and we use Talbot's formula, this would equal a 33 foot catamaran. If one were to look for the smaller, older, well maintained cat, I think you'd be surprised how competitively (compared to that 40' mono) they are priced.

I understand this is a rough comparison, as few would try to circumnavigate with a 33' cat, although some are in fact doing it. For the rest of us, this comparison works pretty well.
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Old 19-04-2010, 05:17   #123
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I can think of quite a few older design cats that would fit the bill. In fact I believe the Prouts have more safely sailed bluewater miles on them than any other production sailboat mono or multi. True they are slow and dated but safe amd seaworthy, unquestionable.
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Old 19-04-2010, 06:06   #124
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Originally Posted by sigmasailor View Post
Just returned from a great sailing trip (Antigua to SVG) on a Lagoon 380. This was our first experience with a cat (Purrrfect) having sailed on Monohulls exclusively.

Some time ago I promised my feedback, well here it is:

Pro:
Room is enormous (much roomier than a 473 or even a 50 ft monohull);
Cockpit and saloon are pleasantly connected;
Fun about monohulls when anchored at rolly anchorages;
Maneuvering is a piece of cake, drives like a tank without even using the rudder;
Speed: 8-9 knots with 21 knots at 90 degree true (and with somewhat foul bottom);
Safe feeling in cockpit and saloon (even too safe to my liking, sailing with 35 knots in 8 ft waves seems not spectacular at all (you get used to the bumping noise), that is until you stick your head above the cabin roof);
Much less engine noise when motoring.

Cons:
Bumpy ride with lots of noise of waves slapping saloon bottom between the two hulls (and you still get whet);
Feeling in wheel is poor (feels like driving a truck);
Sail is very heavy; always needed winch to get it up (no problems with main on a 473 mono)
Overall sailing experience not as nice as in a monohull.

Conclusion: hard to say. For the sailing experience a mono without a doubt, overall comfort when at anchor the cat is the clear winner. Maybe a lighter cat is the solution?
I've sailed on several cruising multis, and I'd say you've got it about right. The room would be nice and I'd take the speed too, but the sense of sailing is definitely not the same in as in a mono.
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Old 19-04-2010, 07:56   #125
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Originally Posted by sneuman View Post
I've sailed on several cruising multis, and I'd say you've got it about right. The room would be nice and I'd take the speed too, but the sense of sailing is definitely not the same in as in a mono.
Agreed
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Old 19-04-2010, 14:27   #126
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Originally Posted by meyermm View Post
I do not see any point in comparing length just as I do not see any point in comparing new prices.

But new prices are the only comparison you can really make.

The used price of anything is what buyers are willing to pay. If used catamarans hold their value better than used monohulls, then that is purely a reflection of their respective desirability to buyers.

More people want catamarans, so they hold their value better.

I can't see how this can be a bad thing.
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Old 19-04-2010, 14:32   #127
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Comparing prices

New boat prices are set by builders and (in most cases) have a relationship to the cost of construction. Beyond that, you will find "gold platers" in monohulls that cost as much (or more) than comparable length multihulls.

(Sorry to drift into a side-topic, but has anyone checked new-boat prices in high-end power boats lately? You may be surprised what a cabin cruiser or sport-fisherman or trawler can cost. Anyone who is willing to run a boat all day that burns in excess of 50 gal/hr can afford the "cost of admission" to catch fish. Not only that, they often have the marina staff wash and polish the boat every time they come back!)

Back on topic -- The used market is dictated solely by what someone will pay at that particular point in time for the particular boat. Key factors of course are age, condition, new boat price for same model (if still sold) and demand.

The last factor is probably the most important. That's what keeps multihulls expensive. If the demand wasn't there the prices would come down.
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Old 19-04-2010, 14:34   #128
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Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat View Post
More people want catamarans, so they hold their value better.
Is that a factual statement? How many sailboats are built each year and what is the mix.

Gord!! I know you have the answer.
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Old 19-04-2010, 15:55   #129
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Maybe I should have said more people want catamarans vs what is available, compared to monohulls.

Whatever, catamarans seem to hold their value better, judging by the number of people complaining about the high prices of used cats.

The solution is to build your own, of course.
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Old 19-04-2010, 16:10   #130
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We have had the pricing argument before and I can't find any data supporting catamarans being more expensive than equivalent monos. New or used.

Here is my take: http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...tml#post303421

What the data does support is that there are far more lower priced monos out there. Not ones with equivalent catamaran examples - just lower priced ones. And this is what trips up these debates.

Yes, one can find an excellent 1968 Alberg 37 (I love this boat, so don't flame me) to do serious cruising at a price at which no serious catamaran will be found.

If you want a good cruising boat, the minimal cost of entry is pretty low. If you specifically want a catamaran, the minimal cost of entry is higher. However, age for age, length for length, build quality for build quality, the prices for catamarans are the same as for monos.

Having said that, I see a lot of evidence that the price of monos exceeds that of equivalent catamarans - even without playing the usable volume trick. Just look at the prices of used boats for sale and apply equivalent age, length and build quality filters.

Mark

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Old 19-04-2010, 21:23   #131
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.....Having said that, I see a lot of evidence that the price of monos exceeds that of equivalent catamarans - even without playing the usable volume trick.

Mark
I agree 100% on your post. Quality under 40' cruising monohulls can cost more than $250K even though they are pushing 20 years old. Some boats that come to mind are Swan, Hinckley, Nauticat, Hallberg-rassy, Pacific Seacraft, Island Packet, Gozzard, Valiant and I know I left out a few. My point is that quality costs money.

Yes I understand that a 30 year old 33' Cape Dory can be had for less than $40K, but which cruising catamaran would you compare it to?

For there to be a price comparison, boat condition and boat quality has to be added to the discussion. Without it, where's the yardstick? By my yardstick, cruising cats stack up very well at quality mono price points.
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Old 20-04-2010, 06:21   #132
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I agree 100% on your post. Quality under 40' cruising monohulls can cost more than $250K even though they are pushing 20 years old. Some boats that come to mind are Swan, Hinckley, Nauticat, Hallberg-rassy, Pacific Seacraft, Island Packet, Gozzard, Valiant and I know I left out a few. My point is that quality costs money.

Yes I understand that a 30 year old 33' Cape Dory can be had for less than $40K, but which cruising catamaran would you compare it to?

For there to be a price comparison, boat condition and boat quality has to be added to the discussion. Without it, where's the yardstick? By my yardstick, cruising cats stack up very well at quality mono price points.
Those are all very high-end monos, so you need to compare them to the high-end multis. Otherwise, you are comparing the lower end of the multis to the upper end of the monos and saying "see, the prices are comparable." That's not really fair.

I'm not trying to start a fight here, just pointing something out: Multi sailors are quick to admit that there's been a lot of evolution in design in the past 20 years - and that's certainly a good thing. But where does that leave the market for 20-year-old multis? Down around the level where a classic fiberglass mono might sell.
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Old 20-04-2010, 06:26   #133
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Nobody really knows the total cost of ownership (TCO) of a boat until they sell it. In that context, multihulls tend to do very well, overall.
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Old 20-04-2010, 07:23   #134
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Those are all very high-end monos, so you need to compare them to the high-end multis.
That is my point exactly. South African built Cats aside, for the moment (and most are very good boats). I am saying that Cruising Catamarans are by definition very high quality boats. Just take a look at their price points..... and the 25 years of history we can review. They are very well built boats.

Quote:
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....Multi sailors are quick to admit that there's been a lot of evolution in design in the past 20 years - and that's certainly a good thing. But where does that leave the market for 20-year-old multis? Down around the level where a classic fiberglass mono might sell.
You're changing the topic. Evolution is present in all vessels. This has a minor role in my view, when it comes to quality. How many 25 year old Cats have come apart? Even my old venerable Catalac is compared to a Hinckley in build quality, yet it certainly can not keep up with a modern catamaran design. Comparatively, they hold their resale value very well.

I'll carry this a step further. Catamarans abandoned in major storms are found floating high and dry weeks later (Richard Wood's Eclipse), undamaged. Or surviving the perfect storm (Catalac 12M). Or safely circumnavigating ...Prout, Catalac, Priviledge...etc...too many to accurately mention.

Isn't this the ultimate measure of a high end boat?

I'll stand by my comparison of quality to quality when talking monos vs multis, a consideration which apparently escapes monohull guys. By my measure used cruising catamarans are a bargain when compared to a quality monohull which has the same interior room.

I don't consider this a fight... I don't think you will either when you look at the data.
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Old 20-04-2010, 07:42   #135
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My feeling is that boats are or should be purpose designed and it is worth discussing the purpose of a particular design.

I am no expert, the opposite really, but in my research have found the info on Dashew's site helpful and I have their Surviving The Seas DVD a very good resource on Storm management. It covers storm management in both CATs and Mono's. One interesting learning was that the Drouge or Chute is not a magic bullet if it really gets bad, depends on the storm... One other learning was the danger the extra space in a CAT poses in a bad storm, you can literally become airborne in that big cabin... one guy broke his ribs after being tossed across the cabin... bottom line, as has been mentioned here is not to find yourself in such conditions... but I can't say so from experience and really hope I never can...

Cheers

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