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Old 20-04-2010, 10:00   #136
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Originally Posted by Tropic Cat View Post
That is my point exactly. South African built Cats aside, for the moment (and most are very good boats). I am saying that Cruising Catamarans are by definition very high quality boats. Just take a look at their price points..... and the 25 years of history we can review. They are very well built boats.



You're changing the topic. Evolution is present in all vessels. This has a minor role in my view, when it comes to quality. How many 25 year old Cats have come apart? Even my old venerable Catalac is compared to a Hinckley in build quality, yet it certainly can not keep up with a modern catamaran design. Comparatively, they hold their resale value very well.

I'll carry this a step further. Catamarans abandoned in major storms are found floating high and dry weeks later (Richard Wood's Eclipse), undamaged. Or surviving the perfect storm (Catalac 12M). Or safely circumnavigating ...Prout, Catalac, Priviledge...etc...too many to accurately mention.

Isn't this the ultimate measure of a high end boat?

I'll stand by my comparison of quality to quality when talking monos vs multis, a consideration which apparently escapes monohull guys. By my measure used cruising catamarans are a bargain when compared to a quality monohull which has the same interior room.

I don't consider this a fight... I don't think you will either when you look at the data.
I'm not talking about build quality, I am talking about design. That's where the positive evolution has taken place. Some Chinese junks I've seen are of superior build quality, but I wouldn't want one. That's all I'm saying.

As for the rest of it, you and I have been around and around on that and my opinions have been clearly stated elsewhere.
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Old 20-04-2010, 10:45   #137
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Originally Posted by sneuman View Post
Those are all very high-end monos, so you need to compare them to the high-end multis..
Once again, this is the post I responded too, not design evolution. Cruising catamaran build quality comparison to quality monos and the price point of these boats. Cats offer much more bang for the buck.

As far as evolution is concerned who could disagree that newer boats are better performers? However, how this current crop of boats hold up 25 years from now is another question entirely and a subject you'll have to revisit at that time.
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Old 20-04-2010, 11:31   #138
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tropic Cat View Post
Once again, this is the post I responded too, not design evolution. Cruising catamaran build quality comparison to quality monos and the price point of these boats. Cats offer much more bang for the buck.

As far as evolution is concerned who could disagree that newer boats are better performers? However, how this current crop of boats hold up 25 years from now is another question entirely and a subject you'll have to revisit at that time.
As usual, I am confused by your response and I'm not invested enough in my POV to try to clear it up.
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Old 20-04-2010, 11:45   #139
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I'm not sure I would agree with this.

All of the cats I've been aboard are essentially pan built boats, like Beneteau's, Hunter's or Catalina's. There is nothing wrong with this construction method but you can't call it yacht quality. Yacht quality is generally stick built semi custom or custom, something like a Hood, Lyman Morse, Hinkley. It is simply a different level of finish.

If we are talking size a Beneteau 43 compared to a Lagoon 44 the prices are vastly different. A new 43 Bene is ~$300k while a new 44 Lagoon is ~$700k. If we are talking money comparisons then $700k buys a new Lagoon 44 or a new Beneteau 57.



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Originally Posted by Tropic Cat View Post
Once again, this is the post I responded too, not design evolution. Cruising catamaran build quality comparison to quality monos and the price point of these boats. Cats offer much more bang for the buck.

.
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Old 20-04-2010, 13:17   #140
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I would guess the Lagoon 44 and the Benetau 57 cost about the same to build.
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Old 20-04-2010, 13:31   #141
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.....If we are talking size a Beneteau 43 compared to a Lagoon 44 the prices are vastly different. ...
Joli, why would you? A lagoon would have the interior space of a 60' monohull. That's what we would be comparing and is one of the points I was making. A Wildcat 350 would compare size wise to a Beneteau 43 and can be had for $125K used. A price point exactly in the midrange of the aformentioned Beneteau. Again, this is my point.

I understand the difference between a one off and a moulded boat. But is that really the measure of quality?
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Old 20-04-2010, 14:03   #142
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I am no expert, the opposite really, but in my research have found the info on Dashew's site helpful and I have their Surviving The Seas DVD a very good resource on Storm management. It covers storm management in both CATs and Mono's. One interesting learning was that the Drouge or Chute is not a magic bullet if it really gets bad, depends on the storm... One other learning was the danger the extra space in a CAT poses in a bad storm, you can literally become airborne in that big cabin... one guy broke his ribs after being tossed across the cabin... bottom line, as has been mentioned here is not to find yourself in such conditions... but I can't say so from experience and really hope I never can...

Cheers

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There wouldn't be many monohulls so cramped that there wasn't enough room in them for someone to fall and injure themselves. And would anyone want to cruise in one that was?

And while you may become airborne in a cat, you are less likely to be rolled over, which has a very high probability of causing injury. I know someone who fractured his skull, broke an arm and some ribs when his boat (mono) was rolled by a wave. His wife nearly drowned. She was tethered in the cockpit.

The likelyhood of being rolled over by waves is a function of the boat's beam. The wider the boat, the larger the wave needed to roll it over.
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Old 20-04-2010, 16:04   #143
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This is where our opinions differ. You feel the $700k Lagoon 44 is a better bang for your buck I feel the $300k Bene 43 is a better bang for my buck. That's ok, we can differ, that's why they print wallpaper.

Quality is what it is. More expensive boats typically have better layup schedules, better gear, better craftsmanship, better rigging, better engineering, better materials..... That said, there is nothing wrong with a pan boat, they've been around for a long time and have proven durable. A to B, both Ford and Mercedes get you there.

When the question is "versus" many of the points being discussed will be subjective and there is no right or wrong answer, just opinion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tropic Cat View Post
Joli, why would you? A lagoon would have the interior space of a 60' monohull. That's what we would be comparing and is one of the points I was making. A Wildcat 350 would compare size wise to a Beneteau 43 and can be had for $125K used. A price point exactly in the midrange of the aformentioned Beneteau. Again, this is my point.

I understand the difference between a one off and a moulded boat. But is that really the measure of quality?
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Old 20-04-2010, 19:56   #144
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I just can't understand why we can't baseilne the discussion on interior volume or some other comparative metric. Even waterline length (cat X 2) as tupid as it is, is better than simply used boat prices.

In the example above someone is really going to have a lot of splainin' to do to convince me that a Bene 43 and a Lagoon 44 are comparable living accomodations. For me it's comparing a 3 bedroom apartment to a 4 bedroom house.

In that I agree that the volume/living space is the start point.

Then talk about a specific 60' mono vs. a specific 44' cat in terms of build quality, price, sailability etc.

Until a common start point is reached this is like Dante's seven rings.
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Old 20-04-2010, 20:26   #145
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At the end of the day price or if you can afford to purchase whether new or secondhand is the ultimate determinate in a purchase.
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Old 20-04-2010, 22:37   #146
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Those are all very high-end monos, so you need to compare them to the high-end multis. Otherwise, you are comparing the lower end of the multis to the upper end of the monos and saying "see, the prices are comparable." That's not really fair.

I'm not trying to start a fight here, just pointing something out: Multi sailors are quick to admit that there's been a lot of evolution in design in the past 20 years - and that's certainly a good thing. But where does that leave the market for 20-year-old multis? Down around the level where a classic fiberglass mono might sell.
I agree!
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Old 20-04-2010, 22:40   #147
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At the end of the day price or if you can afford to purchase whether new or secondhand is the ultimate determinate in a purchase.
Another post short but to the point that I will second the point I have been trying to make
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Old 20-04-2010, 22:55   #148
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Originally Posted by Tropic Cat View Post
That is my point exactly. South African built Cats aside, for the moment (and most are very good boats). I am saying that Cruising Catamarans are by definition very high quality boats. Just take a look at their price points..... and the 25 years of history we can review. They are very well built boats.



You're changing the topic. Evolution is present in all vessels. This has a minor role in my view, when it comes to quality. How many 25 year old Cats have come apart? Even my old venerable Catalac is compared to a Hinckley in build quality, yet it certainly can not keep up with a modern catamaran design. Comparatively, they hold their resale value very well.

I'll carry this a step further. Catamarans abandoned in major storms are found floating high and dry weeks later (Richard Wood's Eclipse), undamaged. Or surviving the perfect storm (Catalac 12M). Or safely circumnavigating ...Prout, Catalac, Priviledge...etc...too many to accurately mention.

Isn't this the ultimate measure of a high end boat?

I'll stand by my comparison of quality to quality when talking monos vs multis, a consideration which apparently escapes monohull guys. By my measure used cruising catamarans are a bargain when compared to a quality monohull which has the same interior room.

I don't consider this a fight... I don't think you will either when you look at the data.
Yachts found floating weeks and months after being abandoned are not only cats so lets not head down this alley again.
For some reason or other you cat guys cannot see that not everyone can afford $700k for a boat any boat even a power boat. I think that is because all the cats I see are high dollar boats with high dollar owners able to afford them. This is where the comparison is being made on some of the later posts. We all know that a 38ft cat will have double the space of a 38ft mono no argument but many can afford that mono but not the cat regardless.
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Old 21-04-2010, 00:07   #149
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For some reason or other you cat guys cannot see that not everyone can afford $700k for a boat any boat even a power boat. I think that is because all the cats I see are high dollar boats with high dollar owners able to afford them. This is where the comparison is being made on some of the later posts. We all know that a 38ft cat will have double the space of a 38ft mono no argument but many can afford that mono but not the cat regardless.

I don't see the point of the headbutting

If one cannot afford any vessell including a cat then one cannot afford it.

For me a cat ticks all the boxes and I will have to put the pennies away until I can find and and afford one that is suitable rather take on the other option.

Others will go a different path and that's their choice and no case for headbutting unless you really aspire to a cat but cannot afford one.
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Old 21-04-2010, 00:23   #150
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Originally Posted by capcook View Post
I am no expert, the opposite really, but in my research have found the info on Dashew's site helpful and I have their Surviving The Seas DVD a very good resource on Storm management. It covers storm management in both CATs and Mono's. One interesting learning was that the Drouge or Chute is not a magic bullet if it really gets bad, depends on the storm... One other learning was the danger the extra space in a CAT poses in a bad storm, you can literally become airborne in that big cabin... one guy broke his ribs after being tossed across the cabin... bottom line, as has been mentioned here is not to find yourself in such conditions... but I can't say so from experience and really hope I never can...

Cheers

DashewOffshore.com - the serious cruising sailor's website
Capcook,

A great reference site for any offshore cruising in any vessel. Thanks for link.

The Dashew range of vessels must be amongst the best of cruising monohulls without doubt.

Your point that a crusing vessel needs to account for safety in planning space in layout is valid for all vessel types. There is always a risk of potential injury in storm conditions in all vessels.
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