Lagoon 380 cat vs Amel Super Maramu for tradewinds RTW

[donradcliffe]

Originally Posted by alansmith

The cat 38 footer wouldn't stand a chance against a SM.

And the SM wouldn't stand a chance against performance cruiser like an Outbound 44.

[cyan]

Originally Posted by robert sailor

Personally I'd take the SM and never look back. There's really no comparison in build quality, speed and safely at sea.I like the L38, it's a lot of boat for it's size and it's one of the better sailors that Lagoon has produced, it would depend on your lifestyle.

Lifestyle is a really good point.
The OP asked a clever question that seemed odd at first.
Most here saw the "RTW" portion of the question. I'm not sure how many considered the "tradewnds" part.

When I hear RTW, I think looong passages with occasional nasty weather. Amel.
Clearly the Amel would be the tool for the southern Indian Ocean.

However, when I hear "tradewinds", I hear weeks of palm tree breezes and lagoon [SIC] sundowners, latitudes barely out of single digits, sprinkled with occasional short/medium passages.

[robert sailor]

Originally Posted by cyan

Lifestyle is a really good point.
The OP asked a clever question that seemed odd at first.
Most here saw the "RTW" portion of the question. I'm not sure how many considered the "tradewnds" part.

When I hear RTW, I think looong passages with occasional nasty weather. Amel.
Clearly the Amel would be the tool for the southern Indian Ocean.

However, when I hear "tradewinds", I hear weeks of palm tree breezes and lagoon [SIC] sundowners, latitudes barely out of single digits, sprinkled with occasional short/medium passages.

I hear ya but there are not very many short passages in the south Pacific and Indian ocean

[boatman61]

After the Marquesas its all pretty short hops if one choses.. the Indian Ocean has been made more difficult mainly due to the piracy so one needs to stay further South.. though nothing I would consider particularly long.. 1500 to 2000 open ocean miles to the Maldives or via Sri Lanka/India if one choses.. from there maybe 1000 to the Seychelles..

[cyan]

Originally Posted by billknny

An Amel with 5 watertight compartments won't sink when holed AND won't capsize so that whole tiresome argument goes away.

The Amel is certainly mighty, but not invincible.

There was one ("Crusader"?) that sank at a mooring when the bowthruster leaked, flooding the forward compartment. When the occupants unknowingly opened the watertight door, it sank.
There was another dismasted in a knock-down in Indonesia.

My point is, watertight living compartments are not very watertight when the interior doors are open.

When a knockdown occurs, there are some surprises and things to learn. (To me, anyway, in a race when watching a 36' knocked next to us down after rounding a mark)

1. The weight of the water in the sails can stick the mast to the water like glue. The "righting moment" goes missing entirely, while the fulcrum (the hull) can go lower by the minute.
2. High gunwales are not that high when horizontal
3. Bilge pumps don't do much up in the air, when the water is on the cabin's interior side, filling cabinets that are normally at eye level.
4. Companionways are (almost) always open under way.
5. Odd "rolly" conditions sometimes mean the current and the wind are fighting each other, and the keel is trying to tell you something.
6. When close-hauled, you might not feel dangerously overpowered until you round a mark and discover your jib sheet has an Oscar. (note- "Oscar" is the grinder who infamously creates winch overrides on our boat)

If you watch the sv Delos Indian Ocean video, you see them bury a gunwale while flirting with 45 degrees on a port tack with the starboard-offset companionway open, flying only a storm jib. I winced. They seem normally conservative, but to make full use of the Amel's safety features, I think you close all hatches and doors in crazy weather, no?

[Eleuthera 2014]

I chose an Amel SM over anything else.

As an opinion, few cats are up to the RTW task...

[robert sailor]

Originally Posted by Eleuthera 2014

I chose an Amel SM over anything else.

As an opinion, few cats are up to the RTW task...

While I think you made a good choice in the Amel there are many many catamarans that are easily up for the task including the L38 but when comparing the 2 I think the Amel would be a better choice for us but others would be happier in a L38.

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by Eleuthera 2014

I chose an Amel SM over anything else.

As an opinion, few cats are up to the RTW task...

I know you like your Amel, I like them to. But to say few cats are upto RTW is just silly and provocative, every year cats sail around the world quite fine. I've got one next to me that is nearly home after a 15 year trip, 37 ft.

[SailFastTri]

I'm a multihull guy but I'd never choose a Lagoon 380 for RTW trip. It's very nice for a week or two charter (I've chartered them three times) but the open water seakeeping of that boat is not great. Here's just a partial list of why it's not great for this:

1. stowage and load carrying capacity very limited
2. keels are not sacrificial (the keel stubs are not a separate compartment from the main bilges, so if you have a hard grounding you would flood the hull).
3. Doesn't go to windward well under sail.
4. It's slow. The fastest I've ever been able to push a Lagoon 380 in flat water was about 9.5k which was on a deep reach with full sails in about 25-30k apparent (I should have reefed). I'm not talking about surfing. The 380 is a displacement boat, even under moderately loaded charter trim. Add all the food, spares, clothing, tools etc. for a long distance RTW and it would be even worse.
   I took a photo of the instruments this last Spring in the BVIs, showing the boat doing 4.4k in 10.1 apparent wind on a beam reach (TWA 83, AWA 56). As owner of a cruising tri I took the photo as a reminder to myself of what I'd give up in sailing performance if I went to a condomaran. My 12-meter boat would be sailing at 7-9k in similar wind conditions with main and working genoa, and I suspect the SMaramu with its longer waterline would also be doing much better speed than the Lagoon.

If you want a cat for RTW with speed, consider Outremer or Katana, or other cat with narrower hulls, daggerboards, and more waterline. JMHO


Lagoon 380 is a nice charter boat or coastal cruiser.

[billknny]

Originally Posted by SailFastTri

I took a photo of the instruments this last Spring in the BVIs, showing the boat doing 4.4k in 10.1 apparent wind on a beam reach (TWA 83, AWA 56). As owner of a cruising tri I took the photo as a reminder to myself of what I'd give up in sailing performance if I went to a condomaran. My 12-meter boat would be sailing at 7-9k in similar wind conditions with main and working genoa, and I suspect the SMaramu with its longer waterline would also be doing much better speed than the Lagoon.

Under those conditions my Amel would be doing 6.5 knots. Not a high speed trimaran for sure, but fast enough not to be annoying.

SailFastTri has a great summary of the issues that are brought up by the OP's original question. A Lagoon380 in RTW trim (i.e., way down on her lines) will spend a huge amount of time motoring because she won't really move in anything but a half gale. If you are comfortable with that, than who am I to argue?

[txg]

Originally Posted by SailFastTri

1. I took a photo of the instruments this last Spring in the BVIs, showing the boat doing 4.4k in 10.1 apparent wind on a beam reach (TWA 83, AWA 56).

These numbers are seriously scary...are you sure that there were no currents or heavy growth on the hulls involved? Our 3 feet smaller and 40 years old monohull does better than that (i'm guessing around 5,5-6kts using the 170% Genoa), and while it is not a slow boat it carries a lot of stuff and is definitely no racer. On the other hand, this spring we overtook a Lagoon 400 that whas flying a parasail in light-wind conditions (about 10-12kts dead downwind) in the middle of the Atlantic ocean. Shortly after that, they dropped sails and raced away using their engines

[SailFastTri]

Originally Posted by txg

These numbers are seriously scary...are you sure that there were no currents or heavy growth on the hulls involved?
snip

Ye, I agree - which i why I took the picture. This was taken 4/1/2017 at 1:08 PM in Sir Francis Drake Channel not far offshore somewhere between Road Town and Frenchmans Cay. I don't have current tables for that area but the nearest tide station in my Navionics app shows it would have been just after high tide (11:41AM) so you might be able to assume it wasn't peak flow, but in which direction? We were heading WNW.
The boat had nearly full tanks, and the bottom had some slime but no hard or heavy growth.

Edit: Also, yes I was checking trim. (And I admit I'm not a seasoned racer but I know how to trim sails pretty well.)

[a64pilot]

My Avatar is a photo that was taken from a friends Lagoon 380. We were sailing back and forth together across the bay, one leg upwind, the other of course downwind. We were slowly pulling away on each upwind leg and holding our own on the downwind.
Now to be fair theirs was a liveaboard Boat and I’m sure seriously loaded down, while we were pretty light at the time, now with us being a whole lot heavier as we are now the liveaboard Boat, things would likely be different.

There are seriously fast Cats, we all know that, however just being a Cat doesn’t necessarily mean your fast like a performance Cat obviously is.

My neighbor has an Amel Super Maramu. We will likely be buddy boating the Western Caribbean soon. I told him that of course being such a bigger boat that he would run away from us as we are only a 6.5kt Boat. He keeps saying he is only a 6.5kt Boat too. However I think he is just being nice, I expect him to run away from us

[robert sailor]

Personally I don't think most cruising cat owners buy their boat for speed. You need a pretty good sized one to carry a cruising load and still retain performance. Most cruisers only sail 10% of the time and many are much less. I think they buy them because their wives like the no heeling feeling and the open feeling as well as they are very behaved in an anchorage. That coupled with gigantic cockpits, where you actually live in the tropics and it's sort of a no brainer for many people. I get it and I do like them but I'm a dyed in the wool mono hull guy, too old now to change.

[smj]

Originally Posted by SailFastTri

Ye, I agree - which i why I took the picture. This was taken 4/1/2017 at 1:08 PM in Sir Francis Drake Channel not far offshore somewhere between Road Town and Frenchmans Cay. I don't have current tables for that area but the nearest tide station in my Navionics app shows it would have been just after high tide (11:41AM) so you might be able to assume it wasn't peak flow, but in which direction? We were heading WNW.
The boat had nearly full tanks, and the bottom had some slime but no hard or heavy growth.

Edit: Also, yes I was checking trim. (And I admit I'm not a seasoned racer but I know how to trim sails pretty well.)

Sounds about right for that boat. TWS of 8.1 so doing a little over 50% of TWS. Not a fast cat but wasn't designed to be a performance cat.