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Old 17-01-2007, 01:22   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unbusted67
Bru,

I couldn't help but notice while looking at pictures of various Golden Hinds the vary large (target-like) transoms on these things. I realise these boats have been time tested but wouldn't a design like this be more susceptible to broaching than say something like the Colin Archer designs with double ends? What keeps GHs from broaching with a big following sea?
I really don't have the experience, either practical or technical, to form an expert opinion but having studied up on the subjedct quite a bit recently I'll comment on a few observations that I have made

Based entirely on gut feeling (and I'm an engineer from a long line of engineers so it's kind've genetic!) and despite the repuation of the GH and it's undoubted past history of sailing all over the world I'm not comfortable with the design for my ultimate blue water cruising plans.

I may be wrong but to me it's simply an Eventide on steroids. The Eventide was designed to be amateur built out of plywood for use in the shoal waters and drying creeks of the Thames Estuary and Essex - an area which MG considered to be one of, if not the, finest sailing areas in the world (and which he enthused about in his book "The Magic of the Swatchways").

I have the Eventide plans and the Golden Hind looks very similar. The only substantial difference being the double chine in the bottom plates. The design has some very characteristic features - the beam is carried well forward, a broad raked transom, a lot of rocker on the bottom and the cutaway sheer line being the obvious ones.

The hull is easily formed out of sheet ply or steel plate with minumum compund curvature. It's ideal for the shoal waters that it was originally designed for. It's never going to be fast. Or for that matter even quick. In fact, were it on land the wildlife would be overtaking it!

The GH31 in GRP built by Terry Erskine was assessed under the EU Recreational Craft Directive as suitable for category A waters (ocean) so we can safely assume that the stability curve is likely to be good on the larger steel versions from the same stable provided (and this may be crucial) that the ballasting etc. is as intended by the designer.

However, I too have my doubts about the large transom in a following sea. I've never heard any reports of specific problems with this on a GH but it's clearly not going to be anywhere near as effective as a canoe stern (eg; Colin Archer) and it presents a large flat, albeit raked, area for a steep following wave to get hold of. There isn't copious amounts of reserve bouyancy in the stern of the hull either and this could be further compounded if the loading of the boat includes lots of heavy gear, stores, fuel etc. in the aft sections.

I would, from my inexperienced armchair, guess that the hull is going to be more easily broached than designs with a smaller transom and more shape to the hull around the stern. In the conditions Mr. Barnes was experiencing, I would guess that a broach is almost certain to be followed by a roll. In that hull, in those conditions, heaving to or at least keeping head on to the waves would, it seems to me, be a more suvivable option. In bad weather like that in any boat running before risks a broach (yes?) and is just not a good option in a hull that is more likely to broach than many.

This may well have been further compounded by the removal of the bilge plates which would have certainly reduced the ability of the hull to track thus making a broach even more likely.

A correlation worth making is that the hull is not, in general form, disimilar to the ubiqutious East Coast Coble fishing craft which can be found throughout Yorkshire, Co. Durham and Northumberland to this day. Flattish bottomed, beam carried well forward, very little keel, fairly large flat transom well raked etc. These craft were built to be launched and recovered through the surf on and off beaches (due to the scarcity of decent harbours along that coast). When recovering back to the beach through the surf the technique was (and is) to come in stern first. The fisherman who sailed the Cobles, and the design dates back beyond recorded history, had no hesitation in choosing a double ended design of boat for life saving purposes when the first lifeboats were introduced in the early 19th century. That says something!

I hate to criticise anybody and all the more so from such an inexperienced position but for my money the boat wasn't a paricularly good choice to start with, shouldn't have bene subjected to a major hull modification just before setting out to sail around the Horn, doesn't appear to have been adequately refitted (surely all the standand and running rigging should have been replaced and upgraded?) and I'll even stick my neck out and suggest that perhaps the roll could have been avoided if the skipper had better understood the characteristics of the craft he was sailing?

All that not withstanding, it's still entirely possible that Ken Barnes would have made it 99 times out of 100 and it was just the luck of the draw that turned against him. One lesson definitely learnt is that if you're going to set off on a world cruise think carefully before sticking the details up on the web! If you do you'd better get it right
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Old 17-01-2007, 01:41   #62
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Wow, Thanks for that. That answer is why this forum is awsome.

I too had the thought that in the instance of a broach the bilge keel would somehow help. They just seem like they would prevent a lot of lateral movement. Also, "Privateer" was not in fact a Golden Hind was it? It was hard to tell from the pictures on Kensolo whether his boat suffered from the same fat-transomedness as the GHs.
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Old 17-01-2007, 01:50   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unbusted67
It was hard to tell from the pictures on Kensolo whether his boat suffered from the same fat-transomedness as the GHs.
Here's a look:

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Old 17-01-2007, 01:55   #64
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Privateer wasn't a Golden Hind. She was, however, from the same stable and, certainly superficially at least, very similar in design (MG obviously didn't believe in reinventing the wheel - there's about half a dozen different designs which are all based on the same basic shape!)



from the advert link posted earlier in the thread

The only noteable difference between the design here and the GH design is that the sheer doesn't feature the trademark MG cutaway at the stern.
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Old 17-01-2007, 02:09   #65
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'Nother comment having looked at the spec and pics in the ad is that whilst I would jump at the boat for me and the missus for gentle cruising in Europe, crossing the pond to the Caribbean and even for transiting Panama, crossing the Pacific and returning via Suez (the ultimate dream!) I can't imagine why anyone would choose that boat for a non-stop solo cirumnavigation via the capes!

A slow, heavy ketch with copious, verging on luxurious, accommodation for five and all mod cons for a solo non-stop circumnavigation?

And it didn't come cheap either! (Well not judging by the asking price of $146,900 which is roughly £75k in proper money!) Not a bad price at all for what would have been a superb liveaboard cruiser for anything from a couple to a family but surely there would have been far better choices for the intended purpose around for that sort of money?

Something with a bit of whizz for starters! I can't see the point in non-stop circumnavigations anyway but if you're gonna do it you might as well get it over with as quickly as possible!
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Old 17-01-2007, 02:22   #66
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Yeah doesn't really seem like a likely choice. Could be way off on this. I am expecting someone to tell us we are wrong and why very soon. It wouldn't be CF if they didn't.
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Old 24-01-2007, 23:06   #67
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Well this is what Ken E-Mailed to me.

I E-mailed Ken hoping to get him on board and this is his reply.

"Joanna, My side of the events can be read on www.kensolo.com . I have not read ,watched, or seen any of the stories, reports, photos, etc. regarding this thing and dont intend to. Everyone has there opinion about what I did or did not do and they are welcome to it. If I listened to others opinions and took them to heart with everthing I did I would be living there life and not mine. I don't do that. If you read the last website update I am pretty sure everyone will agree that this can be turned into a possitive thing no matter what anyones opinion is of what I did or did not do, right or wrong. Ken "
-------- Original Message --------


Giday from downunder Ken,My name is Glenn and my handle is Mudnut.I belong to cruisersforum,and after ya rollover(My condolences to loosing everything)Every pro in the world came out of the "Closset"to besett their opinon for and against what ya did"Even though they were not there".I'm probably not even a novice but am fed up with some of their grandstanding.I would like to say that most of us think you did the right thing and acknowledge that one cannot make statements on pure assumtions.With that said,I would like to ask you formally to log on and post some sort of story as to the situation you found yourself in.I feel it would give support to the 95% of real people on our forum that understand and feel for your loss.Glenn C Davis/akka Mudnut. E-Mail joglenn@tpg.com.au Thank you greatly for your time at such a time.Mudnut.Now don't go spreading rumures that my name is really Joanna.I clearly stated my real name,so,as for everyone wishing for him to come online"Forget it!"Actually,If I was in the same boat(no pun intended)I don't think I would be into posting all over the sites just to satisfy other peoples Q&A's.But ya are welcome to visit his site and get it frome "The horse's mouth "so to speak.Mudnut.
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Old 03-02-2007, 18:49   #68
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Latitude 38 Interview

After hearing Latitude 38 was interviewing Mr. Barnes for this month's issue, I was anxious to hear a first hand account via an indepth interview.

Well that quickly went overboard when I read the title "Accidental Celebrity". The article does not provide any insights into the thinking, decision making or reflections that you have not already read or heard from other sources. Latitude usually has great interviews & well written stories...............this one falls way below their standard.

Accidental Celebrity .....humm, they failed to mention his girlfriend & family who contacted news organizations detailing how no one was rescuing him even though the Coast Guard contacted her seconds after the EPRIB went off. They continued to feed the media monster with misleading comments even though the rescue was being well coordinated by the Coast Guard & Chiliean Navy.

They did mention in the letters section & in the article that "meanwhile, nautical blogs were simmering with critiques & self righteous commentary about what the singlehander should have done differently".

Humm, is that a shot?
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Old 03-02-2007, 18:58   #69
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I think we all had a decent conversation/debate on this thread. From this discussion, we all probably took a thing or two away to remember for our own blue water passages. Seems it closed up nicely without many overly negative comments.

His story is dead now. His 15 minutes have passed...

The forum will be here as he gets on with things and many years after that. I'm sure the community isn't affected by this "shot."
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Old 03-02-2007, 19:02   #70
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Hear Hear!
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Old 09-02-2007, 23:40   #71
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Here is a side thought.Ken said he wasn't insured.Is it possible for a third person to insure somebody by proxy,in America.Im just asking out of curiosity.Mudnut.
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