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Old 16-01-2007, 09:55   #46
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Originally Posted by Raven
to represent the ultimate shorthanded cruising vessel with a particular affinity for heavy weather"
Apparently not.
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Old 16-01-2007, 10:54   #47
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The best known of various Maurice Griffiths designs of this basic type is the Golden Hind. 31's are renowned for their passage making abilities and 26's aren't far behind. The occasional larger version crops up.

Because the Golden Hind 31 is in our top five potential buys list I've read everything I can find about it as you can imagine. These boats are not bilge keelers in the proper sense, they're a breed apart and best described as triple keelers.

The underwater shape is that of a shoal draft long keel plus bilge plates (a true bilge keel hull has no central keel). The bilge plates, whilst certainly in most cases permitting of drying out, primarily server to provide lift to combat leeway and to act as roll preventers

Triple keelers have a reputation, not without some justification, for being slow. On the other hand some examples (GH31, Seadog 30 being two I'm interested in) are real "go anywhere" boats equally at home in the shallow drying creeks of the English East Coast as they are in the middle of an Atlantic gale.

Removing the bilge plates on an MG design isn't unknown and will certainly improve straight line performance. From my reading of the subject, however, I would anticipate that (in the absence of any other modifications such as deepening the keel) it would result in greater leeway when close hauled (albeit with a marked gain in headway) and, crucially, less resistance to rolling.

Maurice Griffiths had probably more experience than any other designer of his day with the application of bilge plates. Many of his designs featured them and were tried and tested in every conceivable way. I find it surprising that a professional designer would suggest they could simply be removed without, it seems, adding a rider about the possible consequences. Whether the plates would have made the slightest difference to the eventual outcome is unknown and unknowable.
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Old 16-01-2007, 11:34   #48
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Originally Posted by bru
Triple keelers have a reputation, not without some justification, for being slow. On the other hand some examples (GH31, Seadog 30 being two I'm interested in) are real "go anywhere" boats equally at home in the shallow drying creeks of the English East Coast as they are in the middle of an Atlantic gale.
For a minute I thought I had managed to "export" some taste accross the Atlantic......

I must confess that I do not intend to be cutting off the Bilge Keels!, (I need them for here, plus I figure that if / when I dissapear of it will make drying out and even hauling out ashore a lot easier.).......will concede she isn't what most would call quick.

A few for sale on the SOA website at the moment, including one down in Gibraltar because the owner is retiring............. She's 84!
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Old 16-01-2007, 11:49   #49
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Originally Posted by sneuman
OK, I know bildge keel (very popular in UK), but what does "bilge keel boat with a full keel" mean?
Two fins at the turn of the bilge with a shallow draft keel on the centerline.

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I've never seen such an animal. When he cut away his bildge keels, what was left?
A relatively shallow draft keel.

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In any case, he subtracted 400lbs of ballast, which admittedly doesn't seem much on a boat of that displacement. But could cutting away the bilge keels have had any effect on his probability of rolling?
I think he said each bilge keel was 400 pounds (could be wrong). I am surprised that Bob Perry would make such a recommendation without doing some engineering calculations...maybe he did. Perhaps it was just an "off hand" remark over the telephone, which could have unintentioned consequences.

I have talked to Bob Perry as well as other Naval Architects via telephone over the years. Often times ideas were "kicked around" without coming to any specific conclusions. Talking about an idea doesn't always mean recommending that idea.

?Quien sabe?
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Old 16-01-2007, 12:02   #50
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Interesting photo Raven, not a boat I would choose for that venture.
A long time ago someone asked me if they could learn to do what we were doing ( cruising). I told him to get a laser and spend a year learning to sail, then spend a year racing keelboats at his local club, then spend a year crewing on as many offshore passages as he could get a ride on. There was more but you get the drift.
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Old 16-01-2007, 12:02   #51
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For those who may be wondering, the "For Sale" ad that I posted a bit earlier to show the bilge keels on the Gulfstream 44 was undoubtedly THE boat that Mr Barnes was sailing - albeit before the unfortunate rollover of late. The link is to an old page dating back to when the boat was sold in Brunswick, Georgia. (From Mr Barnes' web site, "found the boat I ended up with in Brunswick, GA and trucked her to the west coast.")
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Old 16-01-2007, 12:19   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dana-tenacity
A long time ago someone asked me if they could learn to do what we were doing ( cruising). I told him to get a laser and spend a year learning to sail, then spend a year racing keelboats at his local club, then spend a year crewing on as many offshore passages as he could get a ride on. There was more but you get the drift.
Richard Bode wrote a wonderful book called "First You Have To Row A Little Boat:Reflections On Life And Living." Although the author uses his sailing background as a metaphor for life experiences, the title offers sound advice for "learning the ropes."

I agree with dana-tenacity as to the value of a progressive learning path. Following up on that thinking is the adage, "that which doesn't kill us makes us stronger." I am a strong believer that there is great value to being humbled a few times along the way, lest we begin to inflate our significance in the scheme of things.
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Old 16-01-2007, 12:23   #53
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Originally Posted by David_Old_Jersey
For a minute I thought I had managed to "export" some taste accross the Atlantic......
Not quite that far

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Originally Posted by David_Old_Jersey
A few for sale on the SOA website at the moment, including one down in Gibraltar because the owner is retiring............. She's 84!
Quite a few around at the moment, just wish I had the money right now! I'll lay long odds that no sooner will we have sold the house and have the money in the bank to buy the boat there won't be a damn thing we want on the market for ages!!!
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Old 16-01-2007, 13:03   #54
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Sods law innit!

When I was specifically after a Seadog their were not many around at the time - not all of them "good".........and to be honest my "fellow" owners do tend to have a rather overpriced view of their worth.........but don't tell anyone I said that!

Also to be honest IF I was heading straight off to the Med or further afield I probably would have gone for the Deep Seadog, which as I am sure you know is the version made with no Bilge Keels, A deeper Keel and a taller rig - for the "extra performance" (LOL!)..........but I need the B/k's for here and she will be here for a few years yet.

Definately worth getting in touch with the SOA when / if you are thinking of buying, I am sure you will get an invite aboard one for an honest opinion and good look around.


One thing that this thread has done - whether a good thing or not! - is made me ask "why not give cape horn a go"....................
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Old 16-01-2007, 13:14   #55
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Boat/Captain/Crew

A coincident thread on a boat design forum has also been actively discussing the recent dismasting/scuttling of Privateer. An interesting question was posed. How much of a voyage's success can be attributed to the boat? How much of the credit goes to captain/crew? Purely hypothetical, but a fun one to bat around . . .

(Note - just plain luck was intentionally left out of the equation.)
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Old 16-01-2007, 14:38   #56
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Bru,

I couldn't help but notice while looking at pictures of various Golden Hinds the vary large (target-like) transoms on these things. I realise these boats have been time tested but wouldn't a design like this be more susceptible to broaching than say something like the Colin Archer designs with double ends? What keeps GHs from broaching with a big following sea?
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Old 16-01-2007, 14:39   #57
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Originally Posted by David_Old_Jersey
When I was specifically after a Seadog their were not many around at the time - not all of them "good".........and to be honest my "fellow" owners do tend to have a rather overpriced view of their worth.........but don't tell anyone I said that!
I'll keep it quiet They're certainly not cheap comparitive to other similar sized boats of similar age and condition but then the best tool for the job isn't often the cheap one!

Quote:
Originally Posted by David_Old_Jersey
Also to be honest IF I was heading straight off to the Med or further afield I probably would have gone for the Deep Seadog, which as I am sure you know is the version made with no Bilge Keels, A deeper Keel and a taller rig - for the "extra performance" (LOL!)..........but I need the B/k's for here and she will be here for a few years yet.
We'll be in a similar boat (pun intended) as we'll be based in either Essex or Norfolk for several years before heading off into the wide blue yonder and whilst not essential the ability to beach on our own keels is a big plus in those waters. I don't fancy beaching legs, they creak, they're a pain to rig and they've got to be stored somewhere!

Quote:
Originally Posted by David_Old_Jersey
Definately worth getting in touch with the SOA when / if you are thinking of buying, I am sure you will get an invite aboard one for an honest opinion and good look around.
We'll do that thanks.

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Originally Posted by David_Old_Jersey
One thing that this thread has done - whether a good thing or not! - is made me ask "why not give cape horn a go"....................
It's got me thinking the exact opposite As far as I'm concerned if we were meant to sail around the Horn they wouldn't have built the Panama canal
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Old 16-01-2007, 20:38   #58
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I think he said each bilge keel was 400 pounds (could be wrong). I am surprised that Bob Perry would make such a recommendation without doing some engineering calculations...maybe he did. Perhaps it was just an "off hand" remark over the telephone, which could have unintentioned consequences.
It was hard to tell from the post, but 400 lbs per bildge keel sounds about right - an 800 lbs less ballast is starting to add up. I am no naval arch., but it would be interesting to hear from people such as Jeff H on how this might have affected the boats stability.
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Old 16-01-2007, 21:14   #59
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I'll bite Raven, my guess 90% crew, 10 % boat.
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Old 16-01-2007, 21:34   #60
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Quote:
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A coincident thread on a boat design forum has also been actively discussing the recent dismasting/scuttling of Privateer. An interesting question was posed. How much of a voyage's success can be attributed to the boat? How much of the credit goes to captain/crew? Purely hypothetical, but a fun one to bat around . . .

(Note - just plain luck was intentionally left out of the equation.)
I think an excellent crew can get a mediocre boat through a bad spell, but a great boat can also save a mediocre crew. In the end, a good boat lying ahull will probably survive - and that's like having no crew at all.
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