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Old 16-01-2007, 04:38   #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Wheeler
OK Guy's, listen up. I am pretty steamed by some of the comments here. Firstly, us as the Mod/Admin team work Bloody hard behind the seen as VOLUNTEERS to keep this place that we all absolutley love, on track. If someone didn't, go take a look at some boards like L&A, Renegades and see just what places that have bad moderation can become. I am sick to death of being delt nasty inuendo's and I know many of the team are of the same opinion.
None of you saw nor will ever get to see the words PM'd to Kai Nui by this Mr CAVU guy. The comments made were totaly uncalled for. And then what makes it worse is that some of you then side up to his opinions without understanding one thing going on.
We as the Team want one main thing here. That ALL can participate in a "safe" environment. That no poster is ridiculed in anyway for their actions, experiance out on the water. That all can post and ask or answer questions no matter what experiance they have. That NO perosn is ever called names in anyway.
Please PLEASE I ask of you, think before you reply. We ARE NOT here to "Rule or dictate" on this board. We want one common goal of havign this a great place. Quite frankly, I have been hurt as to what is going on in the last few days. I am sick and tired of being insulted and I know many of the rest of the team are also being personaly insulted behind the scenes. If you guy's want this place to remain, then shape up or you won't have a team and this place will fall apart very quickly like other places have. I can gaurantee it.
Too freaking right!!!!Question,"Are we the Antipods Wheels??"Someone mentioned that" they"were having summer right now and that sounds like our part of the of the globe.OH,we kicked ya ars%e in the one-day,BUGGER!There is no one here that would dissagree with CAVU's way of thinking.After all it's lodgical.Thats why it was so easy for people to agree with. Kaui knows that and most everyone else on this forum knows it as well.If ya gonna quote what people say,try, quoteing the whole post and don't take what is said out of context.It's all good an well to put forth what YOU would have done and what KEN did wrong/or could have done a bit differen't or better.But don't ye dare crittercise someone for saying "He did what he thought best at the time and thankfully he is alive"(not exact wording but not far from it)I said somewhere I would have at least cleaned the boat up a bit.A lot of people are Quoteing those photos with their reply and dribble,but,those pics are from the plane and a long way off "pick-up" time.Who really knows what Ken did,he didnt mention having a crap,would that suggest he was constipated?You wern't there,ya probably haven't or never will be ,so you will never understand what he went thru and why he did what he did.So what Kaui said in the first place was pretty well spot on and more lodgicol than the "Would have, should have, could have"Mentality that has been posted.So ya practice MOB tactics,TRY simulating a 360 in the SO and having ya life turned to **** within 10min's without ever experiencing it first hand,not exactly the same is it.What I think ya don't understand here is that we are all on the same boat,just paddling different ways.Mudnut.
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Old 16-01-2007, 05:15   #92
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Alan, Kai and I were sending PM's. They were not that earth shattering for private messages. I'll give them a PG rating. We had a disagreement. He decided to make like he had a victory by klinking his beer mugs in public when S/V Elusive removed my post. I kept the discussion private, he didn't and got you involved.
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Old 16-01-2007, 05:49   #93
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A Call For Diplomacy

I think that there is a broad appreciation of the efforts put forth by those who make this forum possible. That does not mean, however, that site administrators should be excused for lapses of diplomacy. Site administrator's must accept that their participation in the discussion will be held to a higher standard.

I think that there is no doubt that this thread first heated up through direct provocation of a site administrator (below). I don't mean to say that there weren't other things that shouldn't have been said by forum members, but rather that the administrators should take great pains to maintain diplomacy - whether it be through direct participation in the discussion, or attempts to keep threads productive and civil.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kai Nui
Cavu, not sure what to tell you, but go sailing. You are welcome to your opinions, but in this case, they are clearly not based on any experience.
That comment provoked an emotional response from CAVU, who struck back, but to his credit, he also added a lot of insightful contributions to this thread. IMHO, the administrator (Kai Nui) could have nipped the whole thing in the bud by simply apologizing for his inflamatory remark in the beginning and then helping to guide what had become a useful critique of a real world scenario that we all can learn from.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Wheeler
PLEASE I ask of you, think before you reply..
Alan, the line above is good advice, but the ones below will most likely be perceived as a threat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Wheeler
OK Guy's, listen up. I am pretty steamed by some of the comments here.

I am sick to death of being delt nasty inuendo's.

I am sick and tired of being insulted.

If you guy's want this place to remain, then shape up.
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Old 16-01-2007, 05:56   #94
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Ok, I just stumbled on this thread and read several pages, but not all. I'd like to add my two cents on jury rigging. In my opinion, Ken could not have done it.

When I was dismasted in a 28-foot sloop, my buddy and I faced the prospect of stepping the salvaged (wooden) boom with considerable trepidation. In anything less than a complete calm I think it would have been dangerous and nearly impossible. Luckily, it did not come to that - we managed to start the engine. ONE man trying to get the boom on a boat half again as big as mine would have had no chance of doing so, in my opinion.
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Old 16-01-2007, 06:01   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Wheeler
That ALL can participate in a "safe" environment. That no poster is ridiculed in anyway for their actions, experiance out on the water.
I think that frank critiques of past events are valuable to the learning - not only for those involved, but those who follow. In the case of Mr Barnes, a rollover in the southern ocean is perhaps near the top of many a sailor's list of nightmares. The ability of both experienced and inexperienced sailors to weigh in on the subsequent discussion is important and should not be stiffled simply because it may be a critical view of what went down. (forgive the pun)
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Old 16-01-2007, 07:20   #96
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I don't really fault Ken for activating the epirb - given the weather picture it was probably the right choice. Looking at the photos again: Rescue and it looks to me that he did clear away at least some of the rigging (bottom aerial photos show the mast hanging from the rigging off the port bow, but when the Chilean rib is alongside, the mast is gone). What bothers me is that he appears to have made the decision to scuttle the boat early in the process and stuck to that, even when it was apparent that other options were viable - the weather had certainly improved and conditions were more than favourable for a tow to port. He never cleared away the dodger bent over the stern, so there was clearly no effort to fix the steering or attempt motoring. He could not have known if the weather would get worse, so not attempting to get underway put him in further danger (imo) - he did wait 5 days for rescue after all. It's good to see Scott (sneuman) in the discussion - I wonder how his experience compares beyond the aspect of jury-rigs?
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Old 16-01-2007, 08:47   #97
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WOW. While I don't totally agree with CAVU, having a site administrator with 3,000 posts and a title on a public sailing forum say "you obviously have no experience" is like putting it on the forum headlines. Does that mean Cavu has the right to blast away? No, but I feel, he did do it the right way in a PM. The post deleted was not much different than Cavu's other posts. The PM to Kai Nui was something I would have expected from Cavu. Kai asked for a PM and he got it after publicly insulting Cavu numerous times. Kai than used it against Cavu by giving it to Alan.
To me it seems this thread wasn't going the way Kai wanted it to and his opinion was losing public support. I found it to be one of the most interesting threads I have ever read. Are we not allowed to disagree with moderators? Alan, I did not see kaos. I think Kai should have been held to the same criteria S/V Elusive requested. Cavu did.
Kai, as the site administrator handled it wrong. He should have stopped when Cavu countered his put down. Instead, he continued and when Cavu's post was pulled, he cheered publicly by "klinking beer mugs". This was like gas on a fire. I too, would have PM'ed him with strong language.
Cavu, you're an a-hole for not siezing the moment and making this a great thread with your experience. Kai you're an a-hole for not using your 3,000 post experience to understand how to make first contact. JMHO.
Cavu, if you are out there, I think you should leave this thread alone and start a new one. I would love to hear more about Grenada, sea survival training and how to fix my boat in extreme conditions with limited recources available. Some of your tips for post engine dunking were great.
Again, JMHO and you know what they say about opinions. So I guess I'm an a-hole too.
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Old 16-01-2007, 09:08   #98
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I have taken allot of crap over this. I think the time has come for me to say my piece. Ken Barnes. I do not know him. Never met him, and could give a god damn if he drowned out there. I have watched this forum go from a place that displayed support and respect for all boaters, to a place that can't wait for the bloody car wreck to attack the victims. As an Admin, I have a certain decorum that I am responsible for displaying. This means, when I am attacked, and part if the situation, I will make an effort to resolve it, but failing that, I would expect the rest of the moderation team to step in, and stop the situation before it goes this far. That is what Wheels and Elusive have tried to do. cavu's actions were against a person with his hands tied. I made every reasonable effort to step back, and not further provoke him. I also made an effort to take the situation offline, and possibly resolve it reasonably. I was met with insults, and then publicly ridiculed on the forum by him. Several of you have stepped in and bought his line of bullshit without knowing all the facts.
One, I did not tell him to leave. I did say I would not be dissappointed to see him leave.
Two, I did not delete his posts, or ban him, or for that matter, in anyway moderate the content of anyone's posts relating to this thread.
cavu did not "kick my ass". I chose, in the interest of the forum to tone my comments down, and try to avoid any further conflict. It appears that was the wrong decision, and is certainly one that I will not repeat.
For those of you who have assigned yourselves as authorities on the matter, how many of you have been on a sinking boat in a storm? I have. It ain't fun. After it was over, I looked back at the decisions I made, and was embarrassed at some of the simple solutions I overlooked. But, the decisions I did make, got me through it in one piece. Ken's situation was far more grave than mine.
None of your opinions of me are based on a knowledge of my experience, or where I have been. Only on the small glimpses I have provided through my posts to this forum. I suspect my biggest critics are those who have not even read those posts. cavu certainly hadn't.
Considering all the support cavu has, if his intention wasn't to just come in and create strife, why did he leave? You have been conned. You let a trouble maker come into this forum, gain your trust, and turned on someone who really cared about the quality of this forum, and it's members. To those who have looked at this reasonably, and even expressed support for my comments, I thank you, and please know, that support is very meaningfull to me.
As for the PM's in question, it was one PM. It was a string of insults and profanity, with no constructive basis.
Apologize? No chance. Clarify? I did that. More than once. cavu stated he was not a "sailboater" then went on to berate the decisions made by one. I felt that was wrong, and said so.
I have, and still do, believe that it is much more important to discuss the possibilities constructively, than to call someone a wimp for giving up too soon.
My request to get other Admins involved, was not to gang up on anybody, or to have others fight my battles for me. It was to difuse the situation from a perspective outside the discussion.
cavu, pompano, enough is enough. If you wish to continue to participate in this forum, drop the personal attacks. If you continue, we will have no option but to put a stop to this discussion, and that would be a loss for everyone.
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Old 16-01-2007, 09:21   #99
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Aye, I would not take this whole thing seriously.
After all we are just a bunch of guys sitting in front of a computer screen. There is some hissing and popping going on, some ruffled feathers, but nothing more than that....

Quote:
how many of you have been on a sinking boat in a storm?
Not a good feeling for sure. Fortunately Ken's boat was not sinking. Guess that is the whole point of this thread:
Some would have cleaned up the mess and try to sort out what would work, get engine going, etc.
Others agree it was a good thing to hit the panic button, then scuttle the ship.

Yup, none of us were there, don't know what I would have done for sure, but "a never give up" is a good start.
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Old 16-01-2007, 09:25   #100
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I have no way of knowing, and Kai Nui can certainly speak for himself, but I believe his "Rolling on the Floor Laughing My Ass Off" and clinking beer mugs was in response to my posting, pointing out he had a tiger by the tail in debating CAVU, and letting CAVU know that he was incorrect in assuming Moss Landing was in the LA area.

I don't think the portion of CAVU's post that was deleted by Elusive was half as personal as some of the vitriol CAVU was putting out, but it WAS a personal swipe at Kai's assumed experience, and not germane to an otherwise informative discussion.

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Old 16-01-2007, 09:35   #101
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taojones, you are correct. That was what I was responding to. It struck me as funny. I appreciated the levity to help diffuse the conversation. CSY man, same levity in your post. Appreciated. This is a good and valuable discussion. I certainly am in favor of it continuing.
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Old 16-01-2007, 15:04   #102
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OK, back to the discussion at hand.

What do you guys think about cutting-off the 800lbs of steel plates from the bottom of the boat?

"She was originally designed as what is known as a bilge keel boat with a full keel and 16 s.f. plates on each side of the keel to allow her to stay upright when the tide ebbs. I had these cut off after talking with designer, Robert Perry who agreed they were 400 lbs. each with a lot of wetted surface and useless for my plans."

Sorry, just realized that this subject is getting attention in two other threads.
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Old 16-01-2007, 18:03   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sneuman
Ok, I just stumbled on this thread and read several pages, but not all. I'd like to add my two cents on jury rigging. In my opinion, Ken could not have done it.

When I was dismasted in a 28-foot sloop, my buddy and I faced the prospect of stepping the salvaged (wooden) boom with considerable trepidation. In anything less than a complete calm I think it would have been dangerous and nearly impossible. Luckily, it did not come to that - we managed to start the engine. ONE man trying to get the boom on a boat half again as big as mine would have had no chance of doing so, in my opinion.
Totally agree with this. I've been on yacht with no mast (it hadn't been stepped yet) and the motion of it made it very difficult to move around. This was on a fairly pleasant day. The prospect of trying to retreive a useful part of the rig in much worse conditions, with the sure knowledge that falling overboard would mean certain death, when most likely your jacklines and lifelines would have gone with the rig, well someone other than a self proclaimed superhero might find it daunting anyway.

As I said before, it's all very easy from the comfort of your PC.
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Old 16-01-2007, 21:12   #104
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Quote:
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It's good to see Scott (sneuman) in the discussion - I wonder how his experience compares beyond the aspect of jury-rigs?
I think my situation was different in some important ways that would make the analogy to Ken's circumstances pretty dicey:

1) I didn't have an EPIRB. I made a conscious decision not to get one for three reasons, a) expense b) what I perceived as the difficulty of getting a rescue from the Chinese or Vietnamese authorities, c) had a sat phone. I had no direct evidence on (b), but my gut feeling was it would have been useless to have popped an EPIRB in the middle of the South China Sea. As it turned out, the storm conditions would have made a rescue impossible when it would have been most needed, IMHO. We could have used the satphone to call for rescue if it seemed absolutely necessary, but we decided against it. I suppose in both our minds (especially mine) there was some honor in surviving a full on typhoon and limping back to port rather than calling it quits. I am glad I did that, as I think the ghosts haunting me would have been much harder to shake had I thrown in the towel. How that relates to Ken's situation, I will let others judge. The decision not to call for a rescue was also based on the practical observation that a) we were not sinking; b) neither of us was seriously injured. We knew that once the conditions improved we'd figure a way to limp back to port.

2) I was not sailing solo. The psychological advantage of having another person aboard (in my case, a pretty experienced one) to discuss the situation cannot be underestimated. It might have looked a lot more desperate to me if I didn't have the mutual reassurance and the other person to help think through the problem. One thing that was interesting in retrospect is that I was fairly well read, while John's experience was more practical. I brought some ideas to the table that John hadn't thought of and vice versa. Between the two of us, that dialectic worked quite well and we made a good team.

3) I was in the warm tropics, not the cold southern latitudes. Another thing that in my opinion cannot be underestimated. The physical and psychological drain the cold must have had on Ken - especially being alone - is something to consider. As thoroughly soaked and miserable as I was, I wasn't in great danger of hypothermia. Short of that, it's just a fact that the cold makes it harder to do everything - including think straight - especially in a marine environment.

4) I think the financial factor was a big one here. My investment in the boat and crossing was a fraction of what Ken spent, but in many ways I too put all the chips on the table. I had strained my marriage and finances close to the breaking point. Yes, I still had a job to go back to, but I knew I could not push things much further on the money side. Once we dismasted, it didn't take long for me to realize that getting a new mast and the boat repaired in a foreign country and finishing the journey were next to impossible. I metally wrote the boat off while still well offshore, I am sorry to say. Sometimes in life, you just have to know when to cut and run. (The boat was still in the care of someone in Vietnam, awaiting a possible sale, when another typhoon took her down a few months ago). Ken faced the prospect of an expensive tow in foreign waters, repair and recovery. It comes down to cash flow. He had a $250,000 boat - worth substantially less after the dismasting - and was probably looking at least tens of thousands more to get her back to California. It could easily have been too much for him to face. Add to that the near impossibility of starting the process over for a second attempt (again, financially and psychologically) and he was in a bad space.

In the end, Ken's the one that is going to have to work through this. He'll second guess everything a million times more after the rest of us have long since resumed our endless and pointless debate over the Bumfuzzles. It will probably take years and involve all the cliche stages of greiving - denial, acceptance, etc. Most people think that anyone who sets out to sea in a small boat is crazy. The voyage becomes as much as anything a poke in the eye to the naysayers. Even though what happened to Ken (or me) proves none of them right, that's not the way they see it. Maybe they are kind enough not to say "I told you so" to your face, but they are probably saying it to your back, or at least thinking it. Your failure is reassuring for them and legitimizes their own timidity in the face of a challenge. You helped validate their own journey - the one between the couch and the fridge to get another beer during the commercial break for American Idol. Yes, we're all adults and shouldn't let any of that get to us; but inside we're still the kid on the playground who doesn't want to be laughed at.
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Old 16-01-2007, 21:47   #105
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Maybe they are kind enough not to say "I told you so" to your face, but they are probably saying it to your back, or at least thinking it.
Good point, agree with yer posting.

Some of us would have liked to say that to the Bums..

Sorry, just a joke.
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