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Old 15-01-2007, 02:54   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CAVU
Mudnut, how's it going? Great name. Kinda reminds me of Wingnut from Endless Summer. Ahhh, the good old days. To answer your question, I did teach for many, many years sea survival classes for the U.S. Navy. I moved into instructing airline pilots in simulators and teaching international flight procedures while flying for a major airline. During that time, I helped in designing and testing a system called FANS. (Future Air Navigation System).

As for getting back into training civilian sailors, too many opinions. In the Navy, students didn't question instructors. We gave them such intense training, they couldn't. They were sponges and for the most part loved what they saw and sucked it all up. No one had previous experience like this to ask questions. How many do you think were ever put in a helicopter fuselage, windows blacked out, dropped into the water and turn upside down? Better pay attention in class because the next class is real time and you must pass. We than suspended them from parachute risers attached to an I-beam on the stern of a ship and pushed down them down the beam until they fell into the water. They were than dragged behind the ship until they could get out of the harness to simulate the chute inflated and dragging them across the water. Once clear, they had to get their life raft out of a seat pan pouch and inflate it. Inside the raft, they deployed smoke, shot a flare and a helicopter swooped in and hovered overhead so they could experience the rotor wash on the water. A thumbs up and they were required to get out of the raft, grab the hoist cable, attach it to their chute harness, give a thumbs up and were hoisted up to the copter. At that point we lowered them again and left them floating until another ship picked them up. Great confidence booster for those that passed.

Nowadays, I teach an occasional captain's course and cruise whenever possible as well as commercially fishing for tuna. Would I love to teach sea survival again? Absolutely. But, if I couldn't do it at that level, it would be boring.

So nowadays, when I'm bored, I come on to a site like this, bait the moderator (his words) on a sensitive subject and give my opinions. Which, as the say, are like A-holes, everyone's got one.

If nothing else, when the subject gets heated, I do think people read more intently and think rather than skim. What happened to Ken can happen to anyone. How you handle it is up to you. I'm going down fighting and trying. Not sitting and wringing my hands while talking on a SAT phone to my girl friend who's arranging press coverage and posting on my website.

Just wait until they charge the adventurers for their rescue. This rescue did not help the sailing community. Won't happen? How did Sea-tow come about? Anyone hear the estimated price to save Ken?
I knew you were a 1,2,3 man,sounds like ya train those military boys well.No doubt they turned into men.So giving the boys the senario as close as possible to the situation must have given them a good basic to work on!I like that!It probably helps overcome nerves which in turn saves more lives,or at least equate to the effect.Do they fail soldiers that don't make the grade,or,give them extra help to make sure they pass?After all it would be in their/others best intrest.I ask because I have no idear of military training methods and/or reason.I think most sailors like an orderly ship so at least cleaning up the yacht and securing the hatch might have been a good though at least.I was advocateing that maybe a thread from you on some simple things that could go wrong at sea and a few tips on the logical way one would progress to attain a better stability on the situation.Like what would one do if they fell overboard,was attached to the ship by lifeline,but couldn't get back on board.I truly think there would be a way around it,but, how? Just a few simple things most people miss in their processing.It's like if ya never been in that situation maybe a bit of advise or training might mean a big difference.Thanks for ya reply.Mudnut.PS,ya mentioned wing-nuts,over here we say 1/2 a wing-nut,they're usless.Sadly,ya carn't get 1/2 a Mudnut.<GR>
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Old 15-01-2007, 04:52   #62
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Paul,

Thanks for that.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Elliott
(I'm not going to touch the rest of this discussion, but it is interesting to read and wonder what I would have done in Ken's place.)
Don't blame yer!
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Old 15-01-2007, 07:44   #63
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Cruisingcat, in order to comply with S/V Elusive, a moderator, who has deleted some responses, I will ignore your jab. However, please don't try to hang on every post to find something to make a statement. Look at the overall content and I will try to do the same.

When I say I will go down fighting, I mean to save my vessel. I did lose a very precious and prized boat. Weather got extreme and was unforecasted to be that way as many of our nor'easters in the Atlantic can be. Things went fairly typical for three days of the blow, we did fine as we had through many other storms before. This one had another behind it. With the seas already up, they were intensified.

Long story short the hull cracked and we were taking on water. I have all the necessary survival equipment aboard. My list includes: most important, a cool head and experience, Epirb, Solas raft, SSB for long range communication, hand held VHF for communicating with rescue personnel, full offshore flare kit, ration pack, first aid kit and experience to use it, 2mm wetsuits for exposure and the ability to work, survival suits for extremes. A crew that has been trained on each piece of equipment or has in depth knowledge of it through a briefing/conversation (a USCG regulation). All items inspected, packed and ready for deployment.

At no time was my crew in danger of dying because "we were going to go down trying" but the vessel was wounded. I could have called the USCG right then and gotten off. I wouldn't have had to scuttle it because if we stopped fighting it would have sunk on its own. We finally lost the battle after almost a day and within 10 miles of land when we could not keep up with the water coming in as opposed to the water we were bucketing out. Everyone was bucketing including my wife. We all pulled together as a team and rallied to save the ship. Were we scared, yes but only when we stopped trying. That's what I mean when I say, I will die trying. I died that day when this boat sank. It was fully insured but it killed me. I can look back and ask myself what would I do different. The answer: Nothing. At no time would I or did I jeopardize my crew which includes my wife of thirty-five years and she is also my sailing partner for 40 years. I'm 53.

If you want to keep this an argument fine, but I will ignore you from now on under those terms. Disagree but don't take a jab and I will discuss it. I'm not safe at home writing on a computer with a lack of understanding for Ken's position. I'm now, at S/V Elusive's request, writing from a position, been there done that here's what I learned. Perhaps as Mudnut said, we should have a separate thread but I feel, this one already has a lot of attention. Examples of what we see from Ken's experience on the sea are examples, in my opinion, of incorrect action in an emergency situation. Especially for someone that wants to be a solo round the world sailor. He was not going on a weekend jaunt. He had to have prepared himself mentally for the possibility of just this type of situation. Otherwise, he should have stay home. He rolled, he righted and he was down to a power boat with the possibility of raising some type of sail. Masts, sails, stay, booms, dodgers...all sorts of crap hung from his boat for days while he waited for someone else to comfort him. As someone else said, what if he didn't contact someone or what if another storm came on before the rescue. Was he in the correct position to handle it?
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Old 15-01-2007, 07:51   #64
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"PS,ya mentioned wing-nuts,over here we say 1/2 a wing-nut,they're usless.Sadly,ya carn't get 1/2 a Mudnut."

Mudnut, I know you know that was not my intent. Wingnut here was a cool, happy go lucky surfing dude in a great movie from the 70's called Endless Summer. I would be happy if I were Wingnut and had his surfing abilities. Sounds like some here think I'm 1/2 a wing-nut however. But c'est la vie. I am, what I am and I'm comfortable.
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Old 15-01-2007, 08:37   #65
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After reading the post, seeing the photos and then reading the debate here, my sense is that this man made the decision to give up on his dream to sail non stop around the world.

He assessed the damage and decided he couldn't easily recover and be made whole and re start his dream... but he could be rescued and let the dream sink to the bottom of the sea.

Once he felt confident that he would be rescued... he didn't care for a future with that boat... jury rigging it and so forth hardly mattered.

I suspect that if he didn't believe rescue was on the way he would have more aggressively into survival mode, trying to start the engine, emergency steering or jury rig some canvas.

The fact that the rescue took place in calm weather seems to imply that the Pesca might have been able to tow his vessel in. Obviously, Ken's quest was over... not his life... not his survival.. but his quest.

He made this calculus early on after he realized that his boat was sound and not going down. He secured his survival and abandoned his dream... just like that... Poof.

I am sure he was very relieved, depressed and frustrated that all his work ended as it did... but he escaped with his memories... and has lived to tell the tale.

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Old 15-01-2007, 08:49   #66
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So...............what would the Bumfuzzles have done?
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Old 15-01-2007, 08:59   #67
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Too controversial

Goodbye all. I've been PM'ed by a moderator and told that although he was not officially banning, in strong language he would be happy if I did not come back.

Since this is not a public forum but instead a private site with moderators and adminstrators to control the tone, I will comply with his wishes. Perhaps if it were not for his initial attack, my tone would have been different but I doubt it. I am, what I am.

I'm leaving to go down south to survey and possibly purchase a 47' Lagoon. This will be my first large sailing vessel although I have been on many. If I dont like it, I can always roll it to clear the sails and mast in order to turn it into a power boat. (I know, blah, blah, blah, you can't right a cat).

I'm fortunate to have a very experienced young man, who I wish was my son-in-law going with me. We will have fun and be safe or die trying. TIC.

In the future, if you happen to see a vessel named appropriately: "CAVU" (an old aviation term for: ceiling and visibility unlimited), stop in for a drink or give me the finger as you pass by. I will understand.

Moderator, delete the rest of my posts if you want. I stick to my opinions but sometimes its hard to find the words that won't offend everyone. When attacked for content or experience, I reply in kind and question.
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Old 15-01-2007, 09:09   #68
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Defjef, what if he tried and the engine started?

Some of you amaze me how easy you would give up. Days and days of sitting on a boat and not trying.

Get ready everyone, we will be paying for offshore rescues in the future and the cost will be staggering.

I promise, I'm outta here.
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Old 15-01-2007, 10:18   #69
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As to whether he should have been there in the first place, do we really want to open that particular can of worms?
Yeah, I sure would open that can of worms:

What drives these solo sailors?
To prove their man hood? To show others (or themselfes) how brave they are?

To lube their own ego?

Honestly guys, I don't know: Not trying to insult or flame, I just don't understand it.

I do understand however that such voyages are illegal with respect to the Rules of the Road:
Maintain a lookout at all times. Period.

Not only to avoid collision, but also to look for emergency signals from other vessels in distress.

Therefore, it is not only against the rules to sail solo over long distances, but also selfish and irresponsible.

Not sure how these guys justify the above? Their ego trip is more important?

As for what this guy should have done when his ship was NOT sinking?
My opinion would be in allignment with CAVU: Clean it up, secure it and try to get it going.

Don't blame the guy however for being scared and asking for rescue, my wife would have done the same if in the same situation, but she has more sense than to go out and sail on her own in stormy seas. She is just not the type. Perhaps Ken was not either?
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Old 15-01-2007, 11:29   #70
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Because Ken is (was) my neighbor, I have reframed from comment on this subject. The one thing I will comment on is that I believe Epirb should be reserved for a situation in which you are boarding your life raft because your vessel IS sinking or crew is critically injured. I am with CAVU in being concerned that we will all eventually be paying for ocean rescue no matter how warranted the rescue. I believe I read somewhere that the tab for Ken’s rescue was somewhere around $300,000 US. If insurance is faced with paying these kind of bills…I’m sure cruising insurance will become prohibitive to most of us.

Also, I think CAVU provided excellent content.
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Old 15-01-2007, 11:39   #71
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Even after he set off the EPIRB and made his phone calls, he expected to wait 15 hours for a rescue; when that time passed he found out it would be another 12 hours; but ultimately it was another 4 and a half days, before he was picked up. Seems to me his rescue was not that certain and he would have done better than to sit on his can clutching his epirb. I'm with CAVU and CSY on this one.
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Old 15-01-2007, 12:19   #72
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When conditions moderated and he was waiting for the rescue.. he certainly could have attempted some fix up and given more thought to saving the vessel.

I don't know that he would want to give it another go... but scuttling the boat seemed a bit odd. It's not as if he didn't have a few days to try his hand at getting things going a bit.

You'll never know...

Looked like a very lovingly built boat... shame it is...

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Old 15-01-2007, 12:43   #73
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Thought David Lewis was a Kiwi, not from Ozs.
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Old 15-01-2007, 12:44   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trim50
I believe I read somewhere that the tab for Ken’s rescue was somewhere around $300,000 US. If insurance is faced with paying these kind of bills…I’m sure cruising insurance will become prohibitive to most of us.
I don't work in the Search & Rescue branch of Coast Guard (Canadian) but I am familiar with their programs & services. It isn't inconceivable that an offshore rescue would reach $100K within only a few hours. Considering the costs per hour to operate a helo and a primary search vessel are staggering. Figure in a fixed wing aircraft and a few more larger vessels that burn tonnes of fuel per hour it all adds up pretty quick for the taxpayer. This doesn't even take into account the infrastructure that works behind the scenes to support SAR.

Will the Gov't charge back for these services? Unlikely. There are a number of international conventions as well as a matrix of federal, provincial, state and municipal based acts, regulations and guidelines which would stand in the way of that. I had heard years ago that it an "Adventurers Bond" was being considered for those attempting solo crossings but I don't think it ever got off the wharf, at least I haven't heard anything more.

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Old 15-01-2007, 13:04   #75
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Since this has become a discussion about the issue, instead of a string of personal attacks, and bragging rights. I will clarify my perspective a bit.
First. Not one of us was there, so there is no way of knowing what the correct course of action was aside from what we are told by the one person who was there.
Second, did Ken clear off the rigging? It isn't mentioned one way or the other. There was also no mention of problems with it interfearing with the rescue, so I do not know. By ASSUMING that he, as a prudent sailor, did clear the rig, maybe I am giving him more credit than due.
Third, jury rig, and try to make it to land. As I understand it, this would have been risky in consideration of the weather. In addition, rescue resources had a fix on his location. Had he started trying to sail towards land, this would have added time to the rescue effort if it was, in fact necessary to rescue him.
Finally, wait until you are sinking to activate the EPIRB. Couldn't agree more IF you are 10 miles offshore, and in immediate communication with the coast guard. However, Ken was well offshore, and the nearest vessel with the capability to perform a rescue was initially an unknown distance away, and ultimately, days away. Had he started the engine, and ripped the cutlass bearing out, or, had he jury rigged and started to sail towards land, then been rolled, it is unlikely that anyone would have been able to get to him in time.
These are assumptions based on the facts available. Woulda Coulda Shoulda is fine, but how can anyone accurately say they would have done something different without knowing every variable? I too like to think I would have been able to safely bring the boat back, but I am not so arogant as to believe that I can assess the situation better from the saloon in my boat, than Ken could from the cockpit of his.
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