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Old 13-01-2007, 15:34   #16
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Originally Posted by btrayfors
The photos of Ken's boat taken by the Chilean Navy's P3 Orion aircraft clearly show the boat without a mizzen mast or sail. The furled sail is the mainsail. These pics can be accessed on Ken's website: KenSolo

Whatever the explanation, Ken is a brave man who undertook a difficult voyage -- alone -- and put everything he had into it.

Thankfully, he survived this misfortune.

Bill

Hmmmm... you're right. I'm recalling some grainy first pictures that I saw in black and white. They were indeed the same ones you are talking about on his website, but I somehow thought it was the mizzen neatly tied. Guess it was the main.
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Old 13-01-2007, 16:56   #17
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How did he get back to land, was it on the fishing vessel? Could you imagine what Tom Hanks could have done with this vessel instead of a wooden raft and the wall of a Johnny on the Spot?

After reading all the great reasons about a mono-hull over a multi-hull and how they could take a rollover and keep on ticking, Ken kinda throws that theory out the window. Are most of the vessels scuttled after a rollover. He makes a good point for buying a multi-hull, I don't think it would have rolled. Don't you guys discuss what really happens when you rollover. Wouldn't it seem logical that the mast and sails are probably toast. I'm not a sailboater but couldn't he have taken the boom and run it up the mast stub and make some kind of make shift sail? Traveling down wind, he would have run into a Continent.

What was up with the engine, anyone hear?

I'm sorry, I think he could have tried a little harder with everything available to him. After all he was making a chest beating, web advertised, solo round the world cruise. Stuff happens.
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Old 13-01-2007, 18:02   #18
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There was a lady, in a 28' boat in the same storm as Ken. I believe 100 miles from him or something. I wonder what her storm tactics were.
That wasn't Donna by any chance was it???
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Old 13-01-2007, 18:11   #19
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Yes, I believe he was refering to Donna. Two important differences. One, Donna is on her second half of the solo circumnavigation. More recent experience. Two, much smaller boat. Different characteristics, different equipment.
One other important difference. Luck. The same wave and wind combo at exactly the right moment may have rolled Donna, had it hit her boat instead.
Cavu, not sure what to tell you, but go sailing. You are welcome to your opinions, but in this case, they are clearly not based on any experience. I think if you go back and read all the posts relating to this, you will find the answers to all of the questions you pose.
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Old 13-01-2007, 19:47   #20
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Bob Austin made a good comment on his take of the situation over on Boatered. Might be worthy of a read. Look about half way down the page for the post by thataway4.

BoaterEd Forums - Rescued sailor Ken Barnes...long

Personally I agree with most in that I think he abandoned his ship too soon. From what's been written theres the appearance that there was lots he could have done to secure the boat before making the decision to open the seacocks. Then again I don't have much water sailing">blue water sailing experience so who am I to say. But I do remember those "damage control" exercises in the simulator tank all too well!!!
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Old 13-01-2007, 20:28   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kai Nui
You are welcome to your opinions, but in this case, they are clearly not based on any experience.
Excuse me Kai Nui. Please elaborate on what you mean by: "clearly not based on any experience". You don't know my experience. If that vessel was my vessel, I would have not have been sitting in the companion way clutching the Epirb for days in relatively calm seas. If it had an engine, I would have used my experience to fix it and motor back. Or at least tried. If it had some type of material I could have used as a mast, like the boom I see, I would have used my experience to build a make shift sail. Or at least tried. How about making a deal with the Captain of the fishing vessel to tow it in. At least try. I guess Ken didn't need the $150,000 (his estimate) of what the vessel would have been worth even in its condition. This was his pride and joy.

Kai Nui, what's your experience in a survival situation besides a couple thousand posts on this site and a title. I taught all types of hands-on sea and land survival for many years in the US Navy. I also instructed hands-on D-WEST Training or Deep Water Environmental Survival Training for many years. I've been commercial fishing for too many years from South America to the Grand Banks. I've seen weather, I've had emergencies aboard and always got my crew home without any needing medical assistance except for me.

I have to quote you "There's no better bilge pump than a scared sailor with a bucket". Not true if he sits in the companion way clutching the bucket. Kai Nui, have you ever seen a really scared sailor? One reduced to crying and puking but following orders. Or how about one that you had to threaten to tie up and lock in a bunkroom if he didn't go below because he was spreading panic among the crew of a vessel in real danger. That's a scared sailor and a captain keeping him inline and working. Kai Nui this was a survival situation, not a weekend cruise and I'm speaking from experience. One of the most important factors in a survival situation, do something besides wallowing in self pity.

Are you saying with your experience you would have done what Captain Ken did? Would you have sat for days and not even cleared the rigging from the water in case the rescue included a tow. Please tell me from experience, what do you think would have happen to your sailing vessel if it rolled. Would you expect to still have sails and a mast worthy of a weekend cruise? Would you scuttle the Sundari without trying to fix her and get her to port?

This guy, not captain, was on a solo round the world cruise and way over his head. He scuttled his upright and floating vessel. Believe it or not, there is a world out there with vessels that can cruise without sails and some of these people have experience. If in your view Ken's a hero and made the right choice because he's on dry land, don't tell your insurance broker you admire him and will follow his lead or your premiums will go through the roof.

Kai Nui, just because he's a sailboater doesn't mean he should be defended. Discussions on how to avoid the mistakes Ken made on this voyage and how to rig a vessel in distress would be more worthwhile. Pats on the back and statements like "Ken, my hat is off to you. For your spirit of adventure, your decisive seamanship, and your willingness to sacrifice." are hogwash.
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Old 13-01-2007, 20:42   #22
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And the Autopsy Continues…

That leaves the question of which sail was actually up still salient. dana-tenacity, your post is appreciated, since I have no experience with staysails.

Barnes reports surveying the damage in the saloon to the electrical system (the "battery in the sink" quote). I believe I heard him say something about this: something about doubting he had enough battery power to start the engine. In any event, he doesn't report trying. The actual state of his electrical and/or fuel system is not known.

Without masts, or immediate steering, and in a storm, it may have seemed to be the end of the game. The hull was not taking on water. I don't know if I can put myself in his psychological shoes at that moment, but if the weather was relatively calm afterwards, I may have at least inventoried my damage, and found out what worked and what didn't: I could jury rig a sail (that stump of mainmast looked big enough to lash some kind of yard to), or inspect my fuel system and try to start the engine, and see if there were also some way to achieve rudimentary steerage. But then, I'm a simple port-hopping coastal cruiser, and I have no business out there.

In hindsight, it may have been worth a day or two to find out, but inexperienced sailors with romantic dreams who have had inadequate time to get to know their vessels inside and out may throw in the towel where an seasoned seaman will roll up his sleeves and begin sorting through the mess.

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Old 13-01-2007, 20:53   #23
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CAVU

I think he didnt tried very hard with the jerry rig because his goal wasnt just to get around the world, it was to get around the world without stopping. So without his masts there wasnt much sense for him to go on.

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Old 13-01-2007, 21:31   #24
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You know, I think if I was going to circumnavigate, I'd keep it all real quite. And only announce it if I returned in one piece with no troubles ;-)
Reminds me of the TV show BlackAdder. When BlackAdder is off to discover some new land for the Crown. He doesn't like the idea of sailing off into starvation and scurvy and wot not, so they go off somewhere close and return after a year saying they had been and dicovered a new far off land.
Maybe I'll just go around and around the harbour for 6 months a clock up the sea miles and return saying I have circumnavigated the world ;-) :-)
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Old 13-01-2007, 21:37   #25
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Cavu, my response was an effort to point out that by you own admission, you do not have the sailing experience to make a fair judgement of Ken's actions. Something you have clearly decided to do.
Quote:
How did he get back to land, was it on the fishing vessel? Could you imagine what Tom Hanks could have done with this vessel instead of a wooden raft and the wall of a Johnny on the Spot?
This ain't Hollywood, and Ken did not have a film crew supporting HIS voyage off the make believe island.

Quote:
After reading all the great reasons about a mono-hull over a multi-hull and how they could take a rollover and keep on ticking, Ken kinda throws that theory out the window. Are most of the vessels scuttled after a rollover. He makes a good point for buying a multi-hull, I don't think it would have rolled.
OTOH, if it was a multi, and it did roll, it would have stayed rolled. Not sure you made your point.
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Don't you guys discuss what really happens when you rollover. Wouldn't it seem logical that the mast and sails are probably toast.
I think that has been, and is currently being discussed.
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I'm not a sailboater
OK, I don't know your experience, but...
Quote:
but couldn't he have taken the boom and run it up the mast stub and make some kind of make shift sail? Traveling down wind, he would have run into a Continent.
Sailing under jury rig is difficult and slow at best, but in the Southern Ocean, without the ability to reef, or otherwise have full control of the sails, and the likelyhood of more severe storms, this would have been dangerous, if not irresponsible.

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What was up with the engine, anyone hear?
If you read his description, you will notice among other issues, he had the concern of propane leakage, and no electrical system to start the engine.

Quote:
I'm sorry, I think he could have tried a little harder with everything available to him. After all he was making a chest beating, web advertised, solo round the world cruise. Stuff happens.
Stuff did happen. Ken made no secret about the fact that there were things he would have done differently. He took quick and decisive action, and, as a result, he posed a very minimal risk to others during the process of his rescue. By his decision, HE lost HIS boat. He did not take out any other vessels in the process. He did not take any lives in the process, and, there is no one aside from Ken who could accurately assess if there were any other reasonable options.
Cavu, if you wish to attack me personally, feel free to do it off the forum. I will be happy to respond to your PM's.
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Old 13-01-2007, 23:37   #26
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Excuse me Kai Nui. You quote me seven times and provide responses questioning my experience in public and then tell me to respond privately. I don't think so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kai Nui
Cavu, my response was an effort to point out that by you own admission, you do not have the sailing experience to make a fair judgement of Ken's actions. Something you have clearly decided to do.
This was no longer a sailing vessel. I'm not questioning what got him in trouble, I was commenting on how to get him out of trouble. In case you didn't notice in the pictures he doesn't have any sails or masts that makes him a funny looking power boat. BUT, he did have an engine and he may have been able to rig some type of sail propulsion out of the materials available. Did you notice the wind direction, from your experience you would have seen it was a downwind cruise to land with ten to fifteen knots of wind. At least try.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kai Nui
This ain't Hollywood, and Ken did not have a film crew supporting HIS voyage off the make believe island.
It was levity Kai Nui, loosen you spring lines. If I had all the items available to Ken, I would have tried something.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kai Nui
OTOH, if it was a multi, and it did roll, it would have stay rolled.
I knew that one would touch a nerve to a mono-huller. Look at it this way, at least he would have had a reason to get off the boat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kai Nui
Sailing under jury rig is difficult and slow at best, but in the Southern Ocean, without the ability to reef, or otherwise have full control of the sails, and the likelyhood of more severe storms, this would have been dangerous, if not irresponsible.
There you go again, let's let him wallow in self pity, build a wall and not try anything. Was he in a rush? I thought he was planning on going around the world the long way. This was supposed to be an adventure and he ran into a snag. With Ken's experience and dedication to his vessel, this trip was already dangerous, if not irresponsible.

As you said we are discussing the what if's. The propane and electrical system. At sometime during the 55 hours of smelling rotten eggs even Ken would have shutoff the valve on the tank in order to safely clear the fumes. Please give the man some credit. Ken said the CB panel shorted out. Engine starting batteries are not usually on the house bank. How about the batteries in the sink. I would have tried any battery source. Ken said he didn't try to start the engine because he thought it might be misaligned or the shaft bent. Either of these may cause a severe vibration. Or not. Start the engine and see. Re-aligning the engine to get home is not a big deal.

Well it's almost beddy bye time. Your blank check of accepting all of Ken's actions almost amazes me as much as your praise for him.
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Old 13-01-2007, 23:57   #27
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My best wishes to Ken and all the decisions he made.
Life is so much more important than ego and $'s.
I do not want to start an online brawl, however I ask myself if I would have done anything different?
Does it matter.. Not does not. Have some compassion.
This forum seems to entice people to attempt to show their superiority, we are all human and do things differently. We are all entitled to the adventure of life.. When we do not get hurt, or hurt other people learning and living then all is good.
There are so many positive things that have come from this whole incident, personally I say thanks to CNN for keeping us on top of the whole event etc etc...
Take it easy and please do not let this become a dreaded bumfuzz.... thread.
Welcome home Ken
Best wishes in the New Year
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Old 14-01-2007, 01:09   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trim50
How it happened, in Kens words...
I think by this time most people know that if I were to give my current lat. and long. It would be a lot further north than expected. Yes, my trip is over and ended much differently than anticipated. On Jan. 2nd the boat was rolled at around 3pm. I lost my masts, dodger, arch and most everything above decks. My location at the time was lat 54.44 long. 86. I was sailing in 35-45 kt winds on my starboard quarter on a course just south of east with the center of the low pressure system to my southwest and still aways away. The swells were averaging 20-25 feet and coming from 3 different directions but primarily from the northwest.
It has been brought to my attention that in a early radio report I stated that I had my mizzen sail up but If that is what I said It was a misstatement on my part and I apologize for the confusion that I caused by that statement. If I had been running with the mizzen up in those conditions all the negative reaction would definitely be warranted but that was not the case. I was running with only my staysail up. The main and mizzen had been taken down and secured several hours prior to the rollover. My speed was 4-6 kts. And I was trying to get through what I saw by the weather faxes as the last low I would have to face before rounding Cape Horn.
Because I was not In what I considered to be extreme conditions, which I would define as exceeding hull speed with no sail up, or even close to it, I wasn’t thinking of defensive positions yet, such an steaming a drogue and lying a hull. I was below decks at the time of the roll and can only make assumptions of what actually took place at that time based on what I had seen happening before the roll. The boat was rounded up in a gust of wind and before the autopilot could correct a breaking wave caught me broadside. Individually the wind strength, wave or angle to the sea would not have caused a rollover but all 3 together produced that result.
My first impression when the roll occurred was of water rushing in through one of the ports on the lee side. These were approximately 12x8 inch opening side ports that were thoroughly dogged down. My immediate next impression was of light and water entering the main salon. I did not even feel the roll when it occurred or notice the damage that took place inside the boat when it happened. The very first thing I did was go to the source of light and water and see what the cause of it was. I made my way to the main salon and looked up to see no hatch where one was supposed to be. . Standing on a seat I expected to see the hatch completely gone. What I saw was worse than I expected. The rig was gone and with it everything else above decks. The hatch cover was still attached but the locking mechanisms were broken off and I had no way to secure it. The next thing I did was go back to the galley area and secure the port that had opened. I then went out the companionway to the cockpit to further asses the damage. And deploy the drogue.
The steering wheel was completely bent over the deckhouse and steering the boat was not possible also the shift lever was broken off. My thinking went along these lines. The worst of the low is still on its way and I can’t steer the boat. I can’t even take the wheel off because the dodger was collapsed over the wheel and would have to be unbolted and sorted out first. Going back below I started to asses the damage there. The first thing I noticed was the floorboards that secured one of the battery banks had been broken through and that battery bank was scattered and useless. I switched to the other bank and the breaker panel shorted out. Having 120 pounds of propane on board and not knowing if any of the propane supply lines had been compromised in the rollover I did not think it wise to pursue attempting to restore power to the autopilot at that time.
What I was faced with was a boat that had a 2 foot opening in the hull on deck that could not be immediately secured and no way to steer the boat and these were only the obvious problems also did not know how the boat would ride on the drogue. My concern was that the boat would yaw from side to side and get in a position to be rolled again. If that happened I would be in a much worse position than I was in already. The water level inside the boat was up a few inches past the floorboards and I could not immediately see if it was getting worse due to the motion of the boat. All of these things took place in about 2 minutes. I had to make a quick decision about the next step. Whether to ride out the worst of the storm which was still approaching and hope the boat didn’t roll again, because if it did I was probably going into the life raft in very cold water for what turned out to be over 2 days or to activate the EPIRB and set in motion a series of events that would bring others into my predicament. I can only say that I hope you are never faced with that decision; it was not one that I took lightly. My decision was to activate the beacon.
The next thing I did was to make a sat phone call to assure my girlfriend I was currently ok and to alert the coast guard because even though the EPIRB has a blinking light there is no two way communication and I wanted to be sure the signal was getting out of the steel hull. My time next was mostly spent preparing myself and the boat the best I could for a worst case situation. I put on my survival suit, prepared the life raft for deployment and got a few things tied together in the event of another rollover. After awhile I went back up on deck in the storm to make a call and try to get an idea of when, and in what form, helicopter or boat, help would arrive, also what, if anything, I could do to affect an easier rescue. That’s about the time I noticed the plane circling overhead. I put down the sat. phone and got the handheld VHF to contact the plane. It was a very brief conversation as I don’t speak Spanish and the person I spoke to did not speak English. I watched as they flew away.
The storm was raging. I made the phone call and found out the plane had been there awhile I just hadn’t seen it or heard it over the storm. The rescue was to happen in about 15 hours. I spent several of those hours sitting on the companionway ladder with the EPIRB in one hand to try to make sure the signal was getting out and a flashlight in the other trying to assist anyone in finding me if it wasn’t since it was now dark and there were no other lights available to illuminate my position. 15 hours later I called to find out things were delayed and to expect help now in about 12 more hours. I could not leave my sat. phone on because I would run the battery down and I had no way to recharge it. There was no indication from the weather fax of the intensity of the storm that the rescue vessel was in and I had no idea in what form or direction rescue would be coming from. Approximately 55 hours later the lights of the POLAR PESCA 1 appeared on the horizon at 3am.
I had already made the decision to scuttle the boat. My investment in the attempt was well over $250,000. I estimated the cost of repairing the damage to the boat in excess of $100,000. My wallet was empty and the time available to sail her back home would soon be limited as I would have to return to some sort of work in the near future. I was not about to leave her floating to endanger anyone else. The decision was not easy however it was clear what the correct course of action was.
As the POLAR PESCA 1”s crew loaded the last of my 4 bags into the inflatable I went below one last time. Over the last few years this boat and I had developed a relationship. I new her intimately. I had been through every possible space aboard time after time painting, restoring, running wire, cleaning, improving, updating, replacing and constantly inspecting her for any possible weakness. She was repeat with redundancy. Spare parts were available for most items aboard and carefully packed away, never used. I had spent more time with this inanimate piece of steel than I had with my family over the last few years and I felt she was alive and ready to pursue the purpose of her original owners dream to sail the world. She wouldn’t die by herself. I had to intentionally bring her down. I walked forward carefully stepping over the broken floorboards that I had removed so many times to replace old batteries and run new wire many, many times.
Forward, down the steps under which lay the water pump I had replaced. Past the new cushions which were now just twisted foam soaked in diesel and salt water sitting on the cabin sole alongside several months’ worth of food supplies in complete disarray. Past the tools scattered around the boat that were purchased in Georgia for the work of decommissioning her for her trip to California and used countless times over the years in seemingly endless upgrades and repairs. Into the head that had been completely rebuilt and replumbed from the holding tank all the way to the thru hulls.
I reached into my pocket and retrieved a knife that would accomplish one final duty on this, her last day and cut thru her new plumbing well below the waterline. Opening 2 of her five new thru hulls I stood and watched briefly as water started to flood into her. I turned and walked away pausing briefly in the salon to run my hand over the grab rails that had provided me with so much security on this attempt as she battled her way thru seas and winds few have the opportunity to confront. The crew sent to retrieve me sat silently in the dingy as they watched me put the boards in and slide the hatch shut one last time. These were men of the sea and no words were spoken as we motored back to the fishing boat that would return me to the world, they new what I had done and left me to my own thoughts.
As a final epilogue it should be noted that for this attempt the cost of insurance was prohibitive and thus the boat was not covered by insurance in any way and was obviously a total loss. I learned much on this attempt. As with anything new there are things I did right and things I did that were wrong. My biggest regret was involving others in my attempt at a personal goal. I don’t know that the attempt will be made again even with the expeirience I have gained. I was “all in” on this attempt and left nothing on the table. The costs in time, money and emotion were very great. To gather those resources again will take a lot of energy and who knows what tomorrow will bring a new adventure may be on the horizon. I want to thank all of you who wished me well and prayed for my safe return, it was and is deeply felt. Go ahead and LIVE your life. To simply exsist sucks. Ken
What a load of crap. Oprah will love it though.
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Old 14-01-2007, 02:11   #29
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Donald Crowhurst attempted to fake a circumnavigation, went insane, and committed suicide.

In the autumn of 1968, Donald Crowhurst set sail from England to participate in the first single-handed nonstop around-the-world sailboat race (Sunday Times Golden Globe Race).
Crowhurst had entered the race in hopes of winning a cash prize from the Sunday Times to aid his failing business.
Eight months later, his boat was found in the mid-Atlantic, intact but with no one on board. Evidence suggests that he3 decided to take his own life, rather than be discovered as the would-be perpetrator of one of the biggest hoaxes in sailing history.

Force of Nature - The Last Voyage of Donald Crowhurst
Force of Nature - The Last Voyage of Donald Crowhurst

Sailors Take Warning!
http://www.nytimes.com/books/01/06/0...03hightot.html
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Old 14-01-2007, 02:14   #30
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Cavu, I tried to be civil. Didn't work. Tried to answer your questions. Didn't work. Like Joli, you appearantly do not feel Ken did all he could. OK.That's your right. Fact is, we all think about these situations, and we all consider what we would have done that would have been better. I do not claim to be any different in this fact. But, I was not there, and do not pretend to know the particulars of the situation beyond what has been related in Ken's account. Maybe you could have fashioned an emergency rudder from one of those broken floor boards, disconnected the alternater, and hand cranked the engine, then headed off to Chili. Good for you. The bottom line is if you put yourself in his shoes, what decisions would you make? How would you feel about those decisions later? How would you feel about armchair quarterbacks second guessing those decisions? Don't care? That's fine. I do. He is a fellow sailor who has taken a great loss, and has my full support. Posts like yours do nothing to encourage discussion on what to do when your electrics are fried, your boat is holed, and your steering is disabled. All they do is instigate arguements.
That said, to make sure we are on the same page so this can be discussed intelligently, as I read it. He was rolled. There was a storm coming, and a clear weather window following. His steering was disabled and he was unable to repair it due to the dodger being crushed down over the bent wheel. He had one destroyed battery bank, and one that was still functional, but his electrical system was fried. He had potential propane leaks. He had no mizzen, and the main was broken just above the boom. His boat had water over the cabin sole, and "a 2 foot hole in the hull" (I assume he was refering to the broken hatch) He had an EPIRB and a sat phone that could not be recharged.
So, if there is anything that I missed, please feel free to let me know. With this situation, what would you have done?
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