Ken Barnes' Description of Situation

[Lynx]

I rember reading several years that the Coast Guard in Alaska would deliverately roll there new boats. Cool, well....

A boat rigged for going around the capes, Would it be designed to roll over without any damage to the standing rigging?

[CAVU]

Hi everyone. I'm sitting in St. Thomas and having a wonderful time. Kai thanks for clearing things up. As I understand you only ASKED not to comeback for your pleasure but I don't have to officially leave.

I actually knew that but as you know I was going out of town to survey a boat I was considering buying and could not post. I was not here to create strife. Again you started it off and by the post I am quoting below, you continue.

Originally Posted by Kai Nui

Several of you have stepped in and bought his line of ******** without knowing all the facts.

Can can everyone say "********" on the forum or just moderators? If so, now we are getting down to my type of language. Not offensive but more direct.

Originally Posted by Kai Nui

One, I did not tell him to leave. I did say I would not be disappointed to see him leave. Two, I did not delete his posts, or ban him, or for that matter, in anyway moderate the content of anyone's posts relating to this thread. cavu did not "kick my ass".

My post was deleted when I asked for the condensed version of your experience. You say you tried to put an end to it but instead you continue. Oh and BTW, I find it interesting that you continue to try to taunt me by now not capitalizing my name. Perhaps just an over site on your part many times over.

Originally Posted by Kai Nui

Considering all the support cavu has, if his intention wasn't to just come in and create strife, why did he leave? You have been conned. You let a trouble maker come into this forum, gain your trust, and turned on someone who really cared about the quality of this forum, and it's members.

Kai, put your fingers in your pocket. Why do you have to continue with the insults. Is it because you're a moderator and that gives you the right?

Originally Posted by Kai Nui

As for the PM's in question, it was one PM. It was a string of insults and profanity, with no constructive basis.

It was a PM, you called our discussion a fight and I called you an *******, once, and Ken a whimp. That does not make for a string of insults and profanity. You decided to share it. Is that what happens when a moderator asks someone to discuss something in private? You call me a troublemaker, you say I don't have any experience, you exaggerate. Jeez Louise, this is similar to how this got started between us.

Kai knock it off like S/V Elusive asked. If you do, I will. Otherwise I will continue to respond to you until you do kick me off. Being a moderator does not give you the right to crap in my bucket and not expect to find it tossed back at you.

I'm still very interested in the condensed version of your experience. Please don't make me go back and read 3,200 posts. You PM'ed me and told me you once owned a 37' salmon boat. I'm impressed. Did you ever catch a salmon? Sorry, I guess that would be a thread drift. But it is part of this thread. We are talking about what someone would do in another man's situation. Your view is not the only view. Experience counts.

I'm ready to move on and discuss this topic. An olive branch is being presented but I had to reply to your last post. I apologize, if you feel I was out of line in the way I was expressing my view and await your future responses. I accept, from you, will suffice.

I will be in the VI's for a couple more days and then it's off to Grenada and the Grenadines. Carriacou in particular. As for PM'ed Carib toasts, here's to you too. We are having a ball.

[alohaboat]

This is an excerpt from the log of EGRET, a Nordhavn 46 trawler that is transiting Cape Horn from East to West. The log is dated yesterday.

What I find interesting is that the Chilean Navy (Armada) apparently provides some sort of organization for boats rounding the Horn. I suppose the day will come when Chile will try to require permits and charging for rounding the Horn, especially when they factor in necessary rescues along the way.

Captain Scott Flanders aboard EGRET, January 19, 2007

Our strategy for rounding Cape Horn is all weather based. The route is dictated strictly by the Chilean Armada and rightly so. To allow a scattered fleet of private boats to sail around the southern archipelago with no way to track their movements would tax the rescue ability of the Chilean Armada. The weather is so unpredictable and dangerous at times there needs to be just a couple anchorages where the boats group to wait out weather.

[capt lar]

CAVU - If you had stopped at the first paragraph, you would have my support. Note of International Etiquette - When extending an olive branch it is bad form to stick it in the opponent's eye. I hope Kai decides not to respond.

[ssullivan]

I agree Capt Lar. That olive branch had quite a few thorns! Let's stick to the matter at hand and forget all the nonsense. A misunderstanding that is days old and keeps popping up sure derails the thread and bores the rest of us to death. We're trying to have a discussion here. Just ignore it all and move on.

[CSY Man]

Ah, CAVU is back and at full speed ahead.

Time to bring out the popcorn and the beer....

[David_Old_Jersey]

Originally Posted by capt lar

CAVU - If you had stopped at the first paragraph, you would have my support. Note of International Etiquette - When extending an olive branch it is bad form to stick it in the opponent's eye. I hope Kai decides not to respond.

My heart sank as I scrolled down the screen...........

[Starbuck]

Tiresome..

[Greg S]

Boooooring.... Claiming to move on, and doing so, are two distinctly different things.


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Bullwinkle: Eenie meenie chili beanie, the spirits are about to speak.

[Trim50]

CAVU, I guess you didn't like my Olive Branch idea eh?

[CAVU]

No Trim and I will put it to rest.

Been reading about sailing under the autopilot. Just speaking of rough conditions and an autopilot. I had an ST7000, which seems to be a popular unit, on one of my boats. I just can't see a time I would leave the wheel in rough conditions. Unless it runs differently on a sailboat, the 36' downeast lobster boat could not be trusted to recover and she would wander all over the place.

Most boats with an Autohelm unit are running the electric drive unit. Mine was off the power steering pump on the engine. It had plenty of hydraulic volume and the autopilot computer controlled a separate solenoid in the steering lines to the ram. A lot of commercial systems run this way. Still I could not get the ST7000 to correct fast enough in rough sea conditions.

Wouldn't a sailboat with large rudder and such a low flow coming out of the electric drive unit experience the same thing? I could see under fairly stable conditions and small corrections such a unit handling the sea but storm conditions? I know you have to sleep sometime but I don't know if I could while on this type of autopilot.

If I had my choice, I'd rather to ride on a sea anchor and sleep. Recovery solo would be a PITA but doable with a trip line and winch or God forbid by hand but that would not be fun.

[capt lar]

In the July/August 2005 issue of Good Old Boat, Ted Brewer has a good article on Surviving Capsize. He discusses stability and the need to make all efforts to insure your rig will survive a roll. He states "Any yacht can be capsized in the mountainous seas that build up in a great ocean storm".
He recounts the Tzu Hang, 46' ketch, which did lose it's rig after pitchpoll. The crew - Miles and Beryl Smeeton and John Guzzwell - jury rigged and made it to Chile. It happened a 2nd time with just the Smeetons on board and again they jury rigged and made it back to Chile.
To me, this goes back to the crew taking care of the boat and the boat taking care of the crew. If the crew cannot jury rig, then perhaps the boat was too big for the crew. If there had been crew aboard with Ken, it might have been a different tale since they would have the strength to jury rig those heavy spars. If the boat had been smaller, a solosailor might have been better able to jury rig due to the lighter components.
Again, this goes back to the bigger boat is a safer boat debate. I would say a bigger boat is a safer boat until it wasn't big enough. After that, it is the ability to make repairs and get underway that may well make the difference between survival and lost at sea. Rescue is great, but not always possible.

[henkmeuzelaar]

You can forget about setting and retrieving a drag device every time you need to sleep.

This link to Dashew's website is quite illustrataive in showing the amount of effort needed to retrieve any of the commonly used drogues and sea-anchors.

Hell, in an ongoing CSBB forum thread a highly experienced sailor describes how just retrieving a big warp nearly cost him all his energy.

The generally accepted conclusion in that same thread, e.g. as expressed by Evans Starzinger, is that fatigue is the number one reason why one cannot seriously contemplate solo-sailing in these latitudes without the assistance of an autopilot or windvane.

SetSail.com - the serious cruising sailor's website

Have fun!

Flying Dutchman

[ssullivan]

Originally Posted by capt lar

I would say a bigger boat is a safer boat until it wasn't big enough.

Great wording, Capt Lar I have been trying to put that into words myself, but was at a loss.

Also, I think some of this thread might come down to Kai Nui's other singlehanding thread. If you are solo and you are in a large boat and all you have to rely on while catching some zzzz's in a storm is an Autohelm, you're running a big risk. Sometimes you do ok... other times... no so much.

[Trim50]

Flying Dutchman,

I was just yanking your anchor chain. I don't know what kind of serious answer you're looking for...I told you what I have and would do based on experience. I would stay at the helm as long as necessary to get out of the storm or find a harbor.

IMHO, if you take on the conditions of the Horn solo, you have to be mentally prepared for the possibility that you will be at the helm for multiple days without sleep...I believe that is the challenge associated with a solo. Otherwise, we could all buy a boat with an autopilot, plot our circumnavigation course, close the hatches and come out 6 months later as we approach our home port.