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Old 12-08-2013, 19:30   #61
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Re: Keeping Watch at Night ?

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Originally Posted by Snore View Post
With all respects to my esteemed colleagues and maritime betters- the debate has become rhetorical. We may as well debate the number of angels that can dance on a pinhead!

The reality is that single handers will nap, and fix lunch- when they do they technically violate regulations. But a crew of two, where a crewman is hurt and being tended to, is also failing to keep watch. So they are violating the rules. Heaven forbid it is a couple doing the "wild thing" below deck.... They may not even hear the AIS alarm (note to self celibacy now required on board). Like I said the debate is rhetorical.

IMHO, this is where book knowledge and bilge-attorney-ing ends and seamanship starts. Alter course! It is a big friggn ocean. Even if I am the stand-on vessel, I will alter course slightly if it makes the passing work easily.
Hear him! Hear him!

...apart from the "celibacy now required on board" bit...

...and keep watch 24/7!!
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Old 12-08-2013, 19:30   #62
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pirate Re: Keeping Watch at Night ?

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Originally Posted by Snore View Post
With all respects to my esteemed colleagues and maritime betters- the debate has become rhetorical. We may as well debate the number of angels that can dance on a pinhead!

The reality is that single handers will nap, and fix lunch- when they do they technically violate regulations. But a crew of two, where a crewman is hurt and being tended to, is also failing to keep watch. So they are violating the rules. Heaven forbid it is a couple doing the "wild thing" below deck.... They may not even hear the AIS alarm (note to self celibacy now required on board). Like I said the debate is rhetorical.

IMHO, this is where book knowledge and bilge-attorney-ing ends and seamanship starts. Alter course! It is a big friggn ocean. Even if I am the stand-on vessel, I will alter course slightly if it makes the passing work easily.
Well Buga me... give the man a coconut...
A reasonable... not up yer arse sanctimonious post...
Good on yer mate... the hypocrisy was getting over the top... especially as I remember posts by certain members going back a coupla three years...
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Old 12-08-2013, 19:35   #63
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Re: Keeping Watch at Night ?

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Originally Posted by wkstar View Post
Thanks svmariane
Maybe I am ahead of the curve, But Today we have Self-Driving Cars with NO person inside
Perhaps the Dodo bird thought it was ahead of it's time too?

( Gee I hope that fits in the play nice rule )
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Old 12-08-2013, 20:06   #64
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Re: Keeping Watch at Night ?

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The USCG enjoys purposed ambiguity and the flexibility it offers.
Admiralty law spends most of the time in the grey, far from the extremes of black and white.
To the point let’s take apart rule 5:

Lookout
Every vessel shall at all times maintain a proper look-out by sight and hearing as well as by all available means appropriate in the prevailing circumstances and conditions so as to make a full appraisal of the situation and of the risk of collision.


Define “proper”??? Is it conditional? Why is the word used here?

Define “appropriate in the prevailing circumstances and conditions” Is this conditional? What is the purpose of the additional verbiage?

For those who wish to stand on a rule, end all, one might choose one with more stability. Rule 5 is certainly written “conditionally”. I’m sure the standards are different between the southern approach to Ambrose and 300 miles east of Bermuda, right?
Because at midnight in a full blown hurricane "prevailing circumstances and conditions" may differ than in a sunny, light wind, horizon visible day. Then it becomes "proper" and perhaps the best visual "lookout" you might have is the bridge of your nose, and the best hearing "lookout" might accomplish only hearing the loud roar of breaking waves and horizontal rain beating against said bridge of nose.
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Old 12-08-2013, 20:39   #65
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Re: Keeping Watch at Night ?

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Originally Posted by barnakiel View Post
No.
It is not written conditionally.
No? Pretty sure of yourself there, Skipper. I have been to the green table; have you?

"Every vessel shall at all times maintain a proper look-out by sight and hearing as well as by all available means appropriate in the prevailing circumstances and conditions so as to make a full appraisal of the situation and of the risk of collision."

Who's adjudicates appropriate in the prevailing circumstances and conditions? The captain of the vessel.
The Captain defines proper.
The Captain defines appropriate.

It is the Captains judgement and it is that very judgement that comes into question. There are no hard and fast, black and white issues. It is a world of grey.
I assure you appropriate means different things in mid ocean, compared to busy traffic lanes. I assure you appropriate means different things to the captain of a 1000 ft LNG Tanker and a singlehander and a 30ft sailing vessel.
No? Keep dreaming; it's not reality...
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Old 12-08-2013, 20:43   #66
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pirate Re: Keeping Watch at Night ?

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No? Pretty sure of yourself there, Skipper. I have been to the green table; have you?

"Every vessel shall at all times maintain a proper look-out by sight and hearing as well as by all available means appropriate in the prevailing circumstances and conditions so as to make a full appraisal of the situation and of the risk of collision."

Who's adjudicates appropriate in the prevailing circumstances and conditions? The captain of the vessel.
The Captain defines proper.
The Captain defines appropriate.

It is the Captains judgement and it is that very judgement that comes into question. There are no hard and fast, black and white issues. It is a world of grey.
I assure you appropriate means different things in mid ocean, compared to busy traffic lanes. I assure you appropriate means different things to the captain of a 1000 ft LNG Tanker and a singlehander and a 30ft sailing vessel.
No? Keep dreaming; it's not reality...
LOLOL... you do realise your destroying years of happy delusions here...
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Old 12-08-2013, 21:16   #67
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Re: Keeping Watch at Night ?

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Originally Posted by Snore View Post
With all respects to my esteemed colleagues and maritime betters- the debate has become rhetorical. We may as well debate the number of angels that can dance on a pinhead!

The reality is that single handers will nap, and fix lunch- when they do they technically violate regulations. But a crew of two, where a crewman is hurt and being tended to, is also failing to keep watch. So they are violating the rules. Heaven forbid it is a couple doing the "wild thing" below deck.... They may not even hear the AIS alarm (note to self celibacy now required on board). Like I said the debate is rhetorical.

IMHO, this is where book knowledge and bilge-attorney-ing ends and seamanship starts. Alter course! It is a big friggn ocean. Even if I am the stand-on vessel, I will alter course slightly if it makes the passing work easily.
Good Post!!!
It's all about judgement and meeting the demands of the conditions.
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Old 12-08-2013, 21:16   #68
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Re: Keeping Watch at Night ?

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Originally Posted by Crimea Cruiser View Post
Because at midnight in a full blown hurricane "prevailing circumstances and conditions" may differ than in a sunny, light wind, horizon visible day. Then it becomes "proper" and perhaps the best visual "lookout" you might have is the bridge of your nose, and the best hearing "lookout" might accomplish only hearing the loud roar of breaking waves and horizontal rain beating against said bridge of nose.

It is because of such language, which sounds vague to the laymen but will have clear meaning to lawyers and judges in a maritime court of law, that we laymen should not be making decisions based on our "understanding" of the law.
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Old 12-08-2013, 21:22   #69
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Re: Keeping Watch at Night ?

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Originally Posted by Snore View Post
With all respects to my esteemed colleagues and maritime betters- the debate has become rhetorical. We may as well debate the number of angels that can dance on a pinhead!
The answer is eleventeen.

Coops.
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Old 12-08-2013, 21:35   #70
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Re: Keeping Watch at Night ?

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Originally Posted by barnakiel View Post
Personally, I do not allow my crew to read books on watch. No console games, no mp3 players, no joints, no beer, etc. Only the off watch one is free to do what they please but even they are required to get good rest so that they are 100% ready to grind if such a need arises. While on watch, everybody (on our boat) is expected to watch, keep eye on the boat and, if required, steer.

That's the general rule, I do agree that when the weather is good, boat sailing fine and the horizon has been scanned, it is OK to go down below to use the head, grab a jacket or put the kettle on.

Remember how the sat Gypsy Moth on that reef?

b.
I just can't see that as something that works long term. We're leaving on the Pacific crossing in the spring and it just boggles my mind that anyone is going to sit there, for weeks, pulling constant shifts just staring into the ocean for hours.

No fishing, no reading, no music, no listening to podcasts... jesus man, that's just cruel.
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Old 12-08-2013, 21:38   #71
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Re: Keeping Watch at Night ?

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No? Pretty sure of yourself there, Skipper. I have been to the green table; have you?
Hell no I never did! Spotless enlisted and commissioned service record! Well, no spots that went down in paper that actually made it into my service record.
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Old 12-08-2013, 21:52   #72
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Re: Keeping Watch at Night ?

Theres aheck of a difference between daylight hours offshore in a pacific crossing, and coastal cruiseing for a few days !!! In daylight hours I maybe napping in the cockpit, or I might be makeing a sandwich in the galley for 10 minutes, or I may be fixing something that broke ! But Im still able to look every few minutes, and with radar im able to see whats ahead for more then 10 miles anyway !! Now thats not night time for sure ! The few times Ive really offshore singlehanded, I did as I said, I did my sleeping in the cockpit during the days ! Ya gotta sleep sometimes coloregs or not !! Just my 2 cents
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Old 12-08-2013, 22:30   #73
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Re: Keeping Watch at Night ?

On either my first or second return trip from Key West to Boca Grande pass, I was on watch in the middle of the night (only 2on board) and saw a single small white light in the distance. I watched it carefully as it stayed in the same place on my rail- no radar on this 32 ft Tahiti Ketch, and determined we were on a collision course. I shifted course slightly to the west and in a few minutes private fishing boat, no one visible at either helm went by me at no more than 30 yards going about 20 knots. If I hadn't altered course, he would have hit us head on.

Whoever was in that boat was not aware of what was going on around him and never saw us. Made me realize that we all tend to travel similar courses, so someone going south from Boca Grande Pass to the north channel of Key West is very likely to be on the same or nearly same reciprocal course as you are. Point is if you are going north, someone else is probably going south on a similar course. Keep your head out in the cockpit and your radar and AIS alarms active. It might save your life! The sea is not nearly as empty as you might think.
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Old 12-08-2013, 23:02   #74
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Re: Keeping Watch at Night ?

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LOLOL... you do realise your destroying years of happy delusions here...
ROFLMAO !!
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Old 12-08-2013, 23:37   #75
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Re: Keeping Watch at Night ?

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Well, Kenomac, and everybody else,

I think it's wrong to characterize single handers as "idiots". .........It is encumbent on you to preserve the wellbeing of your ship and her crew, and because of the Colregs, you're supposed to watch out for the other guy as well. Please do it!!

Just because someone labels themselves differently, does not make it OK for them to endanger the rest of us with their reckless behavior. Idiotic behavior is what makes one an idiot.
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