Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
  This discussion is proudly sponsored by:
Please support our sponsors and let them know you heard about their products on Cruisers Forums. Advertise Here
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 15-03-2018, 14:25   #91
Registered User
 
Snowpetrel's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Hobart
Boat: Alloy Peterson 40
Posts: 3,919
Re: Keel Failure in the Canaries

https://thewest.com.au/news/wa/wa-ya...-ng-b88755993z

https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/amp....25-h0wmbm.html

Another lost keel with tragic results. Good info over at SA on the boat and keel structure. Seems like it was a lifting keel. Wood and carbon with a lead bulb. Snapped right where the keel exited the hull.

It seems like it is just very hard to engineer a modern narrow cord, low COG keel with a good safety factor.
__________________

__________________
My Ramblings
Snowpetrel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-03-2018, 15:32   #92
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Sydney
Boat: Lagoon 400
Posts: 1,521
Re: Keel Failure in the Canaries

Quote:
Originally Posted by robert sailor View Post
What a load of garbage..everything is joined together on a sailboat, that's the way all boats are built. Your dangerous vibrations that designers have not been able to solve...more silly garbage. How to build a good boat is very well known and has been for years.
Modern high production boats, including yours are not built up to the highest quality standards they are built down to the lowest price and you can not expect high quality and low price to go hand in hand. Modern high production boats are built to a price point, that leads and everything else follows. Designers today are challenged for sure but it's how to get the job done as cheap as possible not as good as possible.
cheap strategy, attack if you not know facts

I do not know much about monohulls however, every sensible human would be concerned about large weight hanging and want to see evidence there is no structural issues before stepping on boat.

I do not know the stresses that mast/keel interaction creates, but you do not know them either. Dismissing my argument as baseless, without any evidence, well I have seen this type behaviour before and does not end well.

What needs to happen is architects put some sensors in there, ask crazy french to RTW in roaring forties and analyze forces.

Then you will get better idea and how to make keel really safe without making boat going too slow.
__________________

arsenelupiga is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-03-2018, 15:49   #93
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Irish Sea
Posts: 1,066
Images: 5
Re: Keel Failure in the Canaries

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowpetrel View Post
https://thewest.com.au/news/wa/wa-ya...-ng-b88755993z

Another lost keel with tragic results. Good info over at SA on the boat and keel structure. Seems like it was a lifting keel. Wood and carbon with a lead bulb. Snapped right where the keel exited the hull.

It seems like it is just very hard to engineer a modern narrow cord, low COG keel with a good safety factor.
Physics is physics, 2-3 tons of iron/lead definitely need a sufficient support.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arsenelupiga View Post
I do not know much about monohulls however, every sensible human would be concerned about large weight hanging and want to see evidence there is no structural issues before stepping on boat.
Don't worry, you won't have to lift it . Do you fear stepping in a car, knowing that the wheels are not bound to the car "just" bolted, and can fall off, killing you in a crash?!
__________________
Useful as a fireproof bottom paint...
GTom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-03-2018, 15:55   #94
Registered User
 
Polux's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Portugal/Med
Boat: Comet 41s
Posts: 6,135
Re: Keel Failure in the Canaries

Quote:
Originally Posted by robert sailor View Post
I agree with you that no manufacturer wants their boats coming apart but some go to greater lengths than others to insure it doesn't happen in normal use.
High production boat builders go to great lengths to save a buck and it shows in a variety of ways. Fortunately probably 98% of the boats built sit in a marina most of their lives and never travel very far from home base even when they are used and only in favorable weather conditions. This fact alone pretty much ensures that they can carry on telling their stories about how well they are built and how capable they are. ...:
There are a thread about big production boats that circumnavigated. They are much more by a factor than luxury well built boats that circumnavigated.

That is in contradiction with what you say.

They are also in much more number than of luxury well built cruisers (by a factor too) so they should be losing, in proportion, much more kells, and that is not the case.

And they are as much in the marina (the majority) as the mass production boats.
Polux is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-03-2018, 17:37   #95
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 5,532
Re: Keel Failure in the Canaries

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polux View Post
There are a thread about big production boats that circumnavigated. They are much more by a factor than luxury well built boats that circumnavigated.

That is in contradiction with what you say.

They are also in much more number than of luxury well built cruisers (by a factor too) so they should be losing, in proportion, much more kells, and that is not the case.

And they are as much in the marina (the majority) as the mass production boats.
I didn't say that only cheap boats were in a marina, I said "boats" and that includes all boats. I also agree that many cheap boats have made long passages but that in itself doesn't prove much because almost anything crosses oceans in the low latitudes, even row boats and god forbid cheap multihulls,lol. Its always interesting when serious cruisers decide to sail high latitudes that many if not most avoid the high production vessels of any stripe.
What I can't argue with is why the high production boat builders design and build the type of boats they do..They know their buyer very well and by and large many of the short comings in their product is of no concern to the buyers. Nobody knows the value and price point on their product better than the builder..their buyers are poundage buyers, they are not looking for higher quality and they are unwilling to pay for it. Its the biggest market out there and i understand why they do what they do.
robert sailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-03-2018, 19:11   #96
Registered User
 
Polux's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Portugal/Med
Boat: Comet 41s
Posts: 6,135
Re: Keel Failure in the Canaries

Quote:
Originally Posted by robert sailor View Post
I didn't say that only cheap boats were in a marina, I said "boats" and that includes all boats. I also agree that many cheap boats have made long passages but that in itself doesn't prove much because almost anything crosses oceans in the low latitudes, even row boats and god forbid cheap multihulls,lol. Its always interesting when serious cruisers decide to sail high latitudes that many if not most avoid the high production vessels of any stripe.
...:
Well, certainly there are more adapted boats to sail on high latitudes but I do know of several production boats that sailed successfully on high, even very high latitude, Bavaria, Beneteau and even a First 40.7 LOL.

I remember that First 40.7 survived a big storm near Antarctica that sunk several other boats including one of those steel ones that are supposed to be the better ones to sail there.
Polux is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-03-2018, 19:55   #97
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 5,532
Re: Keel Failure in the Canaries

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polux View Post
Well, certainly there are more adapted boats to sail on high latitudes but I do know of several production boats that sailed successfully on high, even very high latitude, Bavaria, Beneteau and even a First 40.7 LOL.

I remember that First 40.7 survived a big storm near Antarctica that sunk several other boats including one of those steel ones that are supposed to be the better ones to sail there.
Your doing a pretty good job on your blog by the way Polux, it's getting more interesting. Fairly robust keel mounting system on that X Yacht. Why do some builders continue to use stainless studs in their keel bolts? Stainless is very prone to crevice corrosion in situations like that..
robert sailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-03-2018, 03:09   #98
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Australia
Boat: Island Packet 40
Posts: 2,422
Images: 7
Re: Keel Failure in the Canaries

Quote:
Originally Posted by robert sailor View Post
Fortunately Perry designs keel attachments to factors far in excess of modern boats so nothing to worry about, you could probably lose half the bolts and still be ok.
Now I completely agree with you regarding stainless steel bolts in iron keels or lead for that matter because they are subject to crevice corrosion. Some of the British builders used mild steel for that very purpose. They also tapped the keel so you could withdraw a stud one at a time to inspect it, this can be done on land or in the water. There is no reason to drop a keel on their boats unless the seal at the keel hull has been compromised then you probably should. Even after 30 years almost all of the owners who have pulled studs have found them like new but the odd one was rusted because the seal at the keel had been broken. The use of stainless steel is a marketing game because unlike mild steel the stainless looks good and people like shinny things.


There is no way I would use SS as keel bolts, the stuff is notoriously unreliable. SS nuts on carbon steel studs I would use.
RaymondR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-03-2018, 03:16   #99
Registered User
 
Snowpetrel's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Hobart
Boat: Alloy Peterson 40
Posts: 3,919
Re: Keel Failure in the Canaries

Quote:
Originally Posted by RaymondR View Post


There is no way I would use SS as keel bolts, the stuff is notoriously unreliable. SS nuts on carbon steel studs I would use.
Duplex stainless is pretty good, 316 is crap in comparision.
__________________
My Ramblings
Snowpetrel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-03-2018, 03:30   #100
Registered User
 
Polux's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Portugal/Med
Boat: Comet 41s
Posts: 6,135
Re: Keel Failure in the Canaries

Quote:
Originally Posted by robert sailor View Post
Your doing a pretty good job on your blog by the way Polux, it's getting more interesting. Fairly robust keel mounting system on that X Yacht. Why do some builders continue to use stainless studs in their keel bolts? Stainless is very prone to crevice corrosion in situations like that..
As Snowpetrel as pointed out there are many types of stainless steel and you can bet that if they are using it is because it is the best material. Galvanized steel has also its corrosion problems. Not a money problem here

Old deep wet bilges are a lot worse in what regards conditions for that to happen then modern hull bodies that have dry bridges.
Polux is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-03-2018, 05:55   #101
Registered User
 
transmitterdan's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2011
Boat: Valiant 42
Posts: 5,190
Re: Keel Failure in the Canaries

Does anyone know why titanium is not used for keel bolts?
transmitterdan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-03-2018, 06:01   #102
Registered User
 
Franziska's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Panschwitz, Germany
Boat: Woods Mira 35 Catamaran
Posts: 1,225
Re: Keel Failure in the Canaries

While it is very immun against pitting and stress induced corrosion it can be susceptible to crevice corrosion.
The later us the typical corrosion on keel bolts.

Guess that's the answer Dan.
Franziska is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-03-2018, 07:10   #103
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Penobscot Bay, Maine
Boat: Tayana 47
Posts: 1,282
Re: Keel Failure in the Canaries

I used to hear of monel being used for keel bolts but haven't seen any mention of it lately. It's pricey, but considering the small amount needed for 6-12 keel bolts, would seem to be worth it. Does anyone know of any manufacturers currently using monel or is there a reason why it's fallen out of favor?
jtsailjt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-03-2018, 07:49   #104
Registered User
 
Suijin's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Annapolis MD; currently in Bahamas
Boat: Valiant 40
Posts: 4,408
Re: Keel Failure in the Canaries

Quote:
Originally Posted by arsenelupiga View Post
cheap strategy, attack if you not know facts



I do not know much about monohulls...

Lord.

It was already clear that you did not know much about monohulls from your previous post. Thanks for confirming that.

Keels donít fail because of stresses on the mast, even on boats where the mast is stepped onto the keel bolt backing plate. For example 300+ Valiants out there dating back to 1970s a huge number of which have circumnavigated and not a single keel failure.

The problem is not related to masts. Itís related to build quality, maintenance, and perhaps design flaws around rigidity re materials and layup.
__________________
"Having a yacht is reason for being more cheerful than most." -Kurt Vonnegut
Suijin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-03-2018, 16:08   #105
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 5,532
Re: Keel Failure in the Canaries

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polux View Post
As Snowpetrel as pointed out there are many types of stainless steel and you can bet that if they are using it is because it is the best material. Galvanized steel has also its corrosion problems. Not a money problem here

Old deep wet bilges are a lot worse in what regards conditions for that to happen then modern hull bodies that have dry bridges.
Ha ha surely your kidding me Polux..they are using the finest stainless steel because it's the best material....from the same gang that uses brass in their thru hulls rather than bronze? Using fender washers under cleats rather than backing plates...my man please these builders don't spend a dime they don't have to and you can be very sure they are not using the best material for any of their construction. Truth is I don't have a problem with it either, any real well informed buyer will know they are buying low price not high quality and nothing wrong with that.
__________________

robert sailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
aries, Canaries, keel

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Keel failure - renowed yacht designer and owner drowned sailormed General Sailing Forum 1 14-07-2017 11:33
Keel failure interesting article Dulcesuenos Monohull Sailboats 5 09-01-2015 01:50
Canaries => UK / UK => Canaries stevensuf Europe & Mediterranean 7 19-08-2011 04:31
Keel Cooler Failure Richard Kollmann Plumbing Systems and Fixtures 0 01-06-2008 05:24



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 05:34.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.