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Old 11-12-2017, 12:33   #16
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Re: Keel Failure in the Canaries

Non encapsulated hull owner problem :-) Just because it became standard 30 years ago and those shiny keel bolts have kept the vast majority on for all those years is no guarantee for the next 30 years or after a hard grounding :-( You can pry my full keel with protected prop and rudder from my cold dead hands! Giving all that up for an extra knot or so and some extra beam didn't seem like a good trade when I was boat shopping.
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Old 11-12-2017, 12:40   #17
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Re: Keel Failure in the Canaries

Well I have two bolt on keels, does this mean I have twice the risk or peraps half the 30% chance of survival if I sail up wind? wow, well at least I now know
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Old 11-12-2017, 16:26   #18
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Re: Keel Failure in the Canaries

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Well I have two bolt on keels, does this mean I have twice the risk or peraps half the 30% chance of survival if I sail up wind? wow, well at least I now know
No, it just means you have the small possibility of losing the external piece of equipment that keeps your boat the right way up :-) a reasonable risk to take for sure but it's always a possibility.
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Old 11-12-2017, 16:39   #19
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Re: Keel Failure in the Canaries

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i am trying to do same service to monohull fans as he is to multihull owners.
A floating overturned mono without a keel is no different than an overturned multi. Neither self rescue.
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Old 12-12-2017, 09:36   #20
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Re: Keel Failure in the Canaries

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i am trying to do same service to monohull fans as he is to multihull owners.
OMG! This proves that monos can sink AND capsize...does that make them twice as dangerous as cats? 😆
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Old 12-12-2017, 10:01   #21
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Re: Keel Failure in the Canaries

My good friend owns a Comet, seems like a nice solid boat
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Old 12-12-2017, 10:13   #22
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Re: Keel Failure in the Canaries

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monohulls should be built with integrated keel - fiberglased with the hull and not using bolts. this is structural issue waiting to explode and i would not dare sailing one except in bays. Vibrations from going upwind, which is favourite point of sail for monhullers, tire material and expose crew to mortal danger where there is < 30% chances of survival.

this particular crew was extremely lucky, beating the odds.
Errr... This is about the goofiest thing anybody has written here in a long time (and that's a very high bar). I'll just assume you are trying (and failing) to be funny
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Old 12-12-2017, 10:27   #23
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Re: Keel Failure in the Canaries

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i am trying to do same service to monohull fans as he is to multihull owners.
Now that's funny!
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Old 12-12-2017, 10:42   #24
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Re: Keel Failure in the Canaries

Wow, great news that it didn't end up in a tragedy and the entire crew are safe! Indeed it pushes my upcoming boat buying decision to encapsulated designs. Even though encapsulated keel boats are not as fast and the encapsulated iron might start rusting at the age these boats usually are (30+years), leaving the owner with a much more complicated repair than a few new keel bolts. True however, I've never ever heard about an encapsulated keel failing at sea capsizing the boat and killing her crew as several bolt-on keels did in the past decade.
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Old 12-12-2017, 10:56   #25
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Re: Keel Failure in the Canaries

So fortunate that the crew were rescued. Could have really ended badly.

Tho what is with these threads that start out informative, then always spiral downwards towards some nonsense about inherent danger of keel boats, bolts blah blah blah?

There are poorly designed bolt patterns, poorly built boats with good designs, well built boats of sound design that have been poorly maintained.
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Old 12-12-2017, 11:23   #26
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Re: Keel Failure in the Canaries

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So fortunate that the crew were rescued. Could have really ended badly.

Tho what is with these threads that start out informative, then always spiral downwards towards some nonsense about inherent danger of keel boats, bolts blah blah blah?

There are poorly designed bolt patterns, poorly built boats with good designs, well built boats of sound design that have been poorly maintained.
Obviously if you buy a brand new production boat and take good care of it, don't run it aground, you should be safe for quite a while.

However, how many of us are sailing on boats, that have been sailed&maintained by others for decades? How many of us are paying a high-end professional, really thorough survey? (remember, cheeky rafiki was surveyed before embarking that last jurney...). It is often the question: how much abuse a boat can take and how obvious is the damage after a grounding, etc. Also, what are the consequences of a failure in the middle of the ocean? If an encapsulated keel for some reason wreaks havoc and causes a bad leak, you'll have time for a mayday call and abandon to your liferaft in an orderly manner. The poor crew of Cheeky Rafiki didn't have that luxury.
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Old 12-12-2017, 11:49   #27
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Re: Keel Failure in the Canaries

I guess if I were inclined, I can make up facts that support my preferred mode of failure too.

Kenny bought his classic encapsulated keel boat. Unbeknownst to him, his tanks were corroded and hidden from view. Years of neglect loosened the keel mass. While midway in the point of no return from San Francisco to Hawaii, his diesel and water tank">fresh water tank rupted leaving him only his emergency water supply. But his slow boat, averaging 5 knots or less, meant he still had twenty days to rain only 40 liters. And no diesel.

Meanwhile, Jim with the bolted on keel averaged 7 knots in healthy trades and was drinking beer at the dock. When suddenly his keel bolts, improperly torqued by Wally, broke.
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Old 12-12-2017, 11:54   #28
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Re: Keel Failure in the Canaries

Indeed, as you mentioned, encapsulated designs may fail. Not unimportant though what happens if they fail? This case you mention he even sailed thousand+miles with the "broken" boat...

I did a few google searches in the topic but couldn't find a case in the past 100 years, when the failure of an encapsulated keel put the crew in immediate danger or worse. True, pre-internet era disasters are not always published.

Many claim that 90+% of boats today are bolted designs and produce a low accident rate. Yes, but what was the ratio 30 years ago? Do we really now how many keel accidents happen? I actually did visit a 70' boat which lost her keel few years before our encounter, saw the boatlogs & pics...

Anyway, I stop spamming and move to a separate topic with the the encapsulated vs. bolted discussion.
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Old 12-12-2017, 12:04   #29
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Re: Keel Failure in the Canaries

Woosh.
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Old 13-12-2017, 03:36   #30
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Re: Keel Failure in the Canaries

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Originally Posted by SV DestinyAscen View Post
..

Meanwhile, Jim with the bolted on keel averaged 7 knots in healthy trades and was drinking beer at the dock. When suddenly his keel bolts, improperly torqued by Wally, broke.
Can you elaborate on that? A keel that fall off at a marina? or was just some bolts that broke? On the marina?
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