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Old 03-08-2013, 21:46   #46
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Re: Justice for SV/Quest crew announced

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This happened after the English couple were taken and held for 18 months... and everyone was advising against sailing in that area did it not... was there not a US couple with a boat full of bibles taken as well... or is this the same boat..?
Yes. And as I remember they were publishing a blog and giving updates on their positions on their blog. Christian missionaries with a cargo of bibles approaching a volatile Muslim country. Not that I feel the pirates were justified, just that I feel the cruisers made poor choices.

And either directly before or after this incident didn't some navy sharp shooters take out some pirates? Wasn't there a lot of media glory grabbing going on at the time?
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Old 03-08-2013, 21:53   #47
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Yes. And as I remember they were publishing a blog and giving updates on their positions on their blog. Christian missionaries with a cargo of bibles approaching a volatile Muslim country. Not that I feel the pirates were justified, just that I feel the cruisers made poor choices.

And either directly before or after this incident didn't some navy sharp shooters take out some pirates? Wasn't there a lot of media glory grabbing going on at the time?
The effect of the death of a French yachtsman and in particular SV Quest changed policy in regards to " low and slow" essentially interdiction will only occur before any boarding.

In recent years , the various naval forces and in particular EUNAVFOR ( which is the biggest combined presence ) changed the rules of engagement to bring active military engagement to the Somali coastline , equally attempts are being made to stop piracy on land with interventions in putland.

Whether all this just results in a temporary suppression or a more permanent dismantling remains to be seen. There are still upward of 400 crew held.

Piracy in the area has trended down sharply lately ( 2013) as a result

Dave
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Old 03-08-2013, 22:10   #48
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Re: Justice for SV/Quest crew announced

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They are in jail, justice was done. End of story. Stop acting like a barbarian. Do not become your enemy

There is no anti US bias on CF. , just we inform ourselves , whereas Americans watch Fox News and just think every one out to get them and all problems can be solved at the end of a gun. Perhaps nations with several 1000s years of history and conflict might view that as naive !!


And yes fill those potholes . Lets leave the world alone for a bit , you know a bit of an experiment, lets leave the Israelis to sort out themselves , the South Americans , Cuba , etc etc , maybe the US might be pleasentky surprised

Filling potholes would at least give all those unemployed squaddies something to do !
Dave
All of that said, I'm disappointed in the "world direction" these days. I hate having to apologize for my leaders that do no more than collect money from corporations. International corporations, mind you. Yours and mine, so no country is really off the hook. I'm an American and I try to spread compassion, it's an "beating to the wind battle". I don't believe there is anti US here on CF because people that participate know us and have witnessed that not all of us drink the kool aid of our biased media. We have members here to add balance. I personally derive my news from foreign or independent media, not fox. So all I ask is that you don't lay strict judgment upon me, or all of us, granted that some need close scrutiny.
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Old 03-08-2013, 22:15   #49
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All of that said, I'm disappointed in the "world direction" these days. I hate having to apologize for my leaders that do no more than collect money from corporations. International corporations, mind you. Yours and mine, so no country is really off the hook. I'm an American and I try to spread compassion, it's an "beating to the wind battle". I don't believe there is anti US here on CF because people that participate know us and have witnessed that not all of us drink the kool aid of our biased media. We have members here to add balance. I personally derive my news from foreign or independent media, not fox. So all I ask is that you don't lay strict judgment upon me, or all of us, granted that some need close scrutiny.

You personally " spreading compassion" is great
Governments " spreading compassion " , well that's not gone down well on those at the receiving end.

People hate been told its for "their own good" from the front end of a cruise missile

Cheers to you not drinking the Fox kool aid !

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Old 03-08-2013, 22:30   #50
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Re: Justice for SV/Quest crew announced

You really need to watch the "barbarian" BS Dave. And for someone that seems to be under the impression their so much smarter than any American could ever be about just how to solve the worlds problems, you manged to miss the whole frigging point. The POINT is your attitude of appeasement, and tolerating real barbarians is far more problematic than anything I have said. If your smart enough to critique what is being done, and find it lacking, have the decency to offer your solution. Appeasement seems to be your answer. Please site examples of where appeasement/socialism has truly ever been successful. Hell even the Ruskies figured out that BS doesn't work. And btw the USA is a "Republic", not a democracy, at least for now.

So it's your opinion that because YOU have decided the U.S., and please include the others countries that are attempting to do something that might actually make things safer, that we are all wrong, and those four Americans deserved to die because of that. Might want to look in the mirror if you want to see a barbarian. Sight one case where petting the poor misguided idiots, and giving in to their incessant demands has made it safer.

You seem to be entirely to smart to be so stupid.

Where does the justification stop ? You claim you want peace but support violence against those you disagree with. hmm interesting, but typical of liberals, and socialist.

I shutter to think what your solution might be for those of us that had, and have the courage to stand up and fight for principles, and ensuring good triumphs over evil. You did say that the world doesn't need us, so I will assume you must not believe that there are evil people in this utopian world of yours. Do me, and yourself a favor. Grow up, and accept reality. Like it or not, there are evil people in this world. I don't like a lot of this crazy BS that happens everyday, somewhere in this world either, but I do accept it.

I am more than Okay with being a ex-warrior, but your true vile for anyone that disagrees with you became painfully clear with the "barbarian" tag.
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Old 03-08-2013, 22:46   #51
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You really need to watch the "barbarian" BS Dave. And for someone that seems to be under the impression their so much smarter than any American could ever be about just how to solve the worlds problems, you manged to miss the whole frigging point. The POINT is your attitude of appeasement, and tolerating real barbarians is far more problematic than anything I have said. If your smart enough to critique what is being done, and find it lacking, have the decency to offer your solution. Appeasement seems to be your answer. Please site examples of where appeasement/socialism has truly ever been successful. Hell even the Ruskies figured out that BS doesn't work. And btw the USA is a "Republic", not a democracy, at least for now.

So it's your opinion that because YOU have decided the U.S., and please include the others countries that are attempting to do something that might actually make things safer, that we are all wrong, and those four Americans deserved to die because of that. Might want to look in the mirror if you want to see a barbarian. Sight one case where petting the poor misguided idiots, and giving in to their incessant demands has made it safer.

You seem to be entirely to smart to be so stupid.

Where does the justification stop ? You claim you want peace but support violence angainst those you disagree with. hmm interesting, but typical of liberals, and socialist.

I shutter to think what your solution might be for those of us that had, and have the courage to stand up and fight for principles, and ensuring good triumphs over evil. You did say that the world doesn't need us, so I will assume you must not believe that there are evil people in this utopian world of yours. Do me, and yourself a favor. Grow up, and accept reality. I don't like a lot of this crazy BS that happens everyday, somewhere in this world either, but I do accept it.

I am more than Okay with being a ex-warrior, but your true vile for anyone that disagrees with you became painfully clear with the "barbarian" tag.
My barbarian comment wasnt directed at the US, my barbarian comment was directed at those posters who not satisfied with their own countries justice system , want the hang drawn and quartered approach. That's barbarian eye for eye stuff

As for Somali. The US is not a major player there anyway , its not a strategic sea area for the US , the biggest single grouping is EUNAVFOR , china and Iran and Russia also have commitments there.

Here's the global US problem. " Appeasement " this pejorative word , given bad press by Chamberlin. Conflicts, especially asymmetric conflicts that have social roots CANNOT be solved by military action , suppressed for a time , maybe , but look at Northern Ireland , South Africa , Israel/Palestine , Afghanistan ,etc etc etc ad nauseum

All require diplomatic , messy , solutions , involving all sorts of compromises etc. US policy seems to boil down to " send in the marines" , fixes nothing , band-aids too much and generates huge resentments. Resentful people eventually strike back.

I'm a liberal , but not in the US sense , I'm a fiscal conservative and I support very limited use of military force in certain circumstances.

Nothing ever really gets sorted out f the end of a gun , unless of course you kill ALL of the people there in front of it. , leave One and that one eventually gets a gun and points it at you.

Somali will only be truly fixed , when some sort of order and government is restored to an whole sub continent blighted by warlords , extreme poverty , hunger and brutality

And when did appeasement get mixed up with socialism.

No Americans . Nor anyone else ever deserves to be murdered , that includes criminals. Punishments, yes.

So perhaps you might see , you mis interpreted my remark
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Old 03-08-2013, 22:46   #52
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Re: Justice for SV/Quest crew announced

Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
The effect of the death of a French yachtsman and in particular SV Quest changed policy in regards to " low and slow" essentially interdiction will only occur before any boarding.

In recent years , the various naval forces and in particular EUNAVFOR ( which is the biggest combined presence ) changed the rules of engagement to bring active military engagement to the Somali coastline , equally attempts are being made to stop piracy on land with interventions in putland.

Whether all this just results in a temporary suppression or a more permanent dismantling remains to be seen. There are still upward of 400 crew held.

Piracy in the area has trended down sharply lately ( 2013) as a result

Dave
And I remember that, and is probably that effort and the land based achievements that brought those numbers down. No doubt at all! More and more stable by the day due to combined efforts. But still a hot bed and much more to be done. I get it. Really.

It was a terrible outcome for the hostages and their families. I understand the men and women involved in trying to rescue them did their absolute best. No doubt.

Burns my ass that instead of my tax dollars going to education, food stamps, head start, social security to seniors, etc. would be spent on them having cable TV, 3 meals a day, etc. When clearly they are guilty. Repatriate them or give them the death penalty. I know not very compassionate as I professed I am, but they killed and would do so again if given the opportunity.
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Old 03-08-2013, 22:56   #53
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And I remember that, and is probably that effort and the land based achievements that brought those numbers down. No doubt at all! More and more stable by the day due to combined efforts. But still a hot bed and much more to be done. I get it. Really.

It was a terrible outcome for the hostages and their families. I understand the men and women involved in trying to rescue them did their absolute best. No doubt.

Burns my ass that instead of my tax dollars going to education, food stamps, head start, social security to seniors, etc. would be spent on them having cable TV, 3 meals a day, etc. When clearly they are guilty. Repatriate them or give them the death penalty. I know not very compassionate as I professed I am, but they killed and would do so again if given the opportunity.
Well, you will never get me to agree to capital punishment, I don't think our justice systems are infallible enough. We imprisioned several Irishmen on charges that were trumped up , imagine if they have been subjected to the death penalty .

I find it entirely depressing that you attitude in the last paragraph seems to mirror that of US policy. That a law abiding nation. Founded on the principles of tolerance and freedom, would forgo all that just for an eye for an eye approach.

The US penal system is one of the most toughest on the planet amongst "developed" nations. I don't think you have much to fear.

And yes your not compassionate as you profess , you might investigate why poor fishermen in Somali found themselves pawns in well financed piracy operations.

" but they killed and would do so again if given the opportunity" , you know this for sure , that's ok then. death penalty so


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Old 03-08-2013, 23:48   #54
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Re: Justice for SV/Quest crew announced

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Well, you will never get me to agree to capital punishment, I don't think our justice systems are infallible enough. We imprisioned several Irishmen on charges that were trumped up , imagine if they have been subjected to the death penalty .

I find it entirely depressing that you attitude in the last paragraph seems to mirror that of US policy. That a law abiding nation. Founded on the principles of tolerance and freedom, would forgo all that just for an eye for an eye approach.

The US penal system is one of the most toughest on the planet amongst "developed" nations. I don't think you have much to fear.

And yes your not compassionate as you profess , you might investigate why poor fishermen in Somali found themselves pawns in well financed piracy operations.

" but they killed and would do so again if given the opportunity" , you know this for sure , that's ok then. death penalty so


Dave
No Dave I'm not normally for capital punishment unless they are caught red handed, which they were.and I truly feel sorry because the youth of their country and the entire population of their country is in such a desperate circumstance that easily people would be drawn to the pirate profession out of need of survival. I get and sympathize with that also.

I wish I were a genius, a Gandhi, a person that could solve world strife. But I'm not. And I can not come up with world resolutions to make peace. But that's my greatest wish. I'm also realistic enough to know that weather it be a crack head on an urban American street or a religious zealot (politicians included) there's little I can do to expand their mind set. And then when they resort to violence? Well I understand their fear and need but can't condone it.
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Old 03-08-2013, 23:52   #55
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Re: Justice for SV/Quest crew announced

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Old 04-08-2013, 00:12   #56
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Re: Justice for SV/Quest crew announced

Thanks for clearing the "barbarian" tag up Dave.

I can see your far more articulate that I am, but that's Okay.

And forgive me for being a little cautious about your beliefs about us old retired warriors. Part of me is afraid that if you had your way we would all be dropped into a active volcano, or something similar. But maybe I am mistaken, I hope so.

" but they killed and would do so again if given the opportunity" , you know this for sure , that's ok then. death penalty so gas em."

What is the answer ?
What works, or will work, when ?

And please include our efforts in diplomacy. You might not believe it counted for much that we had four Americans murdered in Benghazi , but I do. Can we get just a little credit for the Marines killed in Beirut please.


I grew up going to school, and learning to bend over under my school desk, and kiss my ass goodby on a regular basis. Watch neighbors have bomb shelters put in their back yards, my dad was a WW II Marine vet, and refused to live in fear of Russian, or anyone really.. I doubt if the brits escaped something similar. It was the big bad Russian Bear in the 50's, yada yada yada. My generation got to go kill a bunch of folks for what was no more than who was going to control the rice, and rubber production, and exportation. And I so stated in a newspaper interview.

The fear merchants have become expert at selling their wares.
IMHO until we address that issue the terrorism will continue.
Why we don't go after the Saudi's for shipping money by the boat loads to the vermin, in spite of all their frigging oil, I surly don't understand.

I personally would like to try the "Walking Tall" solution. But it would stop the BS, and who really wants that.

This **** gives me a headache...;>) Good nite Elizabeth...
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Old 04-08-2013, 00:41   #57
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Re: Justice for SV/Quest crew announced

No one deserves to be murdered BUT all of us have to take personal responsibility for our actions and choices in life. As others have said sailing into that area with a boatload of bibles is an award winning Darwinian move if there ever was one. How stupid does someone have to be to pull a stunt like that?
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Old 04-08-2013, 05:25   #58
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I find this thread sad and am going to consider starting a "not to have a beer with" list
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Old 04-08-2013, 09:02   #59
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Re: Justice for SV/Quest crew announced

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my barbarian comment was directed at those posters who not satisfied with their own countries justice system , want the hang drawn and quartered approach. That's barbarian eye for eye stuff.
Justice means the balance of punishment to crime. If the punishment is disproportionately harsh (amputating a hand for theft), that is unjust. If the punishment is too lenient (a strict warning for theft), that is also unjust. In other words, proportional sentencing is the right way to go. If one commits murder and takes a life one should pay in the same coin.

The very reason why courts of law were invented was to take revenge out of the hands of the individual (or tribe) and replace it with an inquiry by a neutral party, the judiciary. But in the end, if the aggrieved party comes to believe that justice has not been meted out private revenge will follow and respect for the law courts will be eroded. Wait and see. Life even in the US may not mean life. There may come a time when the Somali pirates are exchanged for someone or something. The pirates may themselves become a cause celeb.
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Old 04-08-2013, 11:27   #60
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Justice means the balance of punishment to crime. If the punishment is disproportionately harsh (amputating a hand for theft), that is unjust. If the punishment is too lenient (a strict warning for theft), that is also unjust. In other words, proportional sentencing is the right way to go. If one commits murder and takes a life one should pay in the same coin.

The very reason why courts of law were invented was to take revenge out of the hands of the individual (or tribe) and replace it with an inquiry by a neutral party, the judiciary. But in the end, if the aggrieved party comes to believe that justice has not been meted out private revenge will follow and respect for the law courts will be eroded. Wait and see. Life even in the US may not mean life. There may come a time when the Somali pirates are exchanged for someone or something. The pirates may themselves become a cause celeb.
I'm personally glad I live on the side of the pond that does not condone capital punishment

"If one commits murder and takes a life one should pay in the same coin." I see , so child rapists should themselves be taped ( or maybe their children raped) or knife crime punished by knifing the perpetrator.

The justice systems punishes breaches of law, it does not seek retribution. You are punished for the crime of murder

Capital punishment has no place in my opinion in a modern democracy. The purpose of prison in my view is to rehabilitate offenders so that they repent and rejoin society as functional members. We regularly release prisoners as part of settlements , even if they committed murder.

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