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Old 02-05-2007, 23:22   #16
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bah to sailing dogma...

When you are at home surfing bulletin boards it is all the perfect storm and what is/isnt suitable dogma etc etc.

Once you are out here, it is all battling light air and every kind of boat imaginable. I know of at least 3 junk rigged boats happily and successfully cruising mexico/Central America right now and I am sure there are more.

That said, I was never wealthy enough to be super picky about my rig. if I was building my boat from scratch I would be more picky but in actual fact Estrella chose us and we are happy with our marconi ketch so far.

I have seen everything from a modified panga to 53' Amel Super Maramu out here and all of them were doing fine. Ironically many of them are doing better than we are ;-)

One of my favorite boooks (I dont remember which buut I think Tor Pinney wrote it) wrote in the first bit about "Which boat" something to the effect of "Ketch, Schooner, Sloop, or cutter. Marconi or gaffer, just pick the rig you like the most and go cruising. It is far more important to go than to choose one type of rig over another. They all have advantages so choose the one you like best and go."

anyway, that was a lot to say just to post you these links...

cheers,
Batwing Chronicles
Log of s/v Willow
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Old 03-05-2007, 08:38   #17
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I've always been interested in junk rigs... I personally am a bit wishy washy about the aesthetics, sometimes they looks great(especially on a traditionally designed junk), but sometimes they're ugly, but always they've got character.

Again, I'm another one of those people that says, it's not what you sail, it's how you have fun while doing it. So if it's fun to you, go for it, if bermudan, gaff, square rigged, schooner, whatever is more fun, go for those. It's all up to you.
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Old 03-05-2007, 09:40   #18
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Tom Colvin, who knows a thing or two about boats, lived for 18yrs with his family on his junk, most of the time without an engine! I think that gives him some authority on the subject.
For those interested in the junk rig, reading some of his old articles on the subject would be fun.
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Old 03-05-2007, 10:32   #19
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Speaking of archaic/early/old/odd/etc. sail and boat designs, I'd like to get my hands on an old polynesian style voyaging canoe, though I'm sure Makali'i, Iosepa, Hokulea, and the others wont be up for sale any time soon.
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Old 03-05-2007, 12:16   #20
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Speaking of experienced seamen

Allen Farrell built many boats using a variety of rigs.
He spent most of his life afloat, always returning
to Canada's west coast, which has an abundance
of rocky coasts, on-shore winds, calms, flukey winds,
25-foot tides and currents up to 17 knots.
He and Sharie spent their last years together
cruising the BC coast in China Cloud,
a 50-foot junk he built himself.
A very interesting fellow.
Here's a link

From Tree to Sea: Boat Builders of the Sunshine Coast

And the grand daddy of single-handed circumnavigators,
Master Mariner, clipper-ship captain and owner,
master shipwright Joshua Slocum had this to say
about the Junk Rig (he was speaking of the 35-foot
"canoe" which he built on the shores of Brazil after
being wrecked in the Aquidneck, and which he and his family
sailed 5,500 miles from Brazil to North Carolina at an
average speed of 105 miles per day):
"Her rig was the Chinese sampan [junk] style, which is,
I consider, the most convenient boat rig in the whole world."

Now THAT is an endorsement!

Having said all that, though,
I agree with AdamY and sluissa that the main thing
is to get on the water and have fun.
If fun to you means a spritsail schooner
with steam paddle auxilliary, that's great!
I see that the new rage is attaching a wing
and propeller to your inflatable dinghy
and flying from cove to cove.
Not my idea of a great rig,
but god bless them that likes it.

We're all in this together, shipmates.
"
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Old 23-01-2008, 16:26   #21
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Junk vs. marconi-by someone very familiar with both

This is an old thread, and I see several posts condemning the junk rig. The "negative" posters don't say how they came by their opinions, which makes them rather suspect to me. It should be emphasized that the junk rig of the 21st century isn't the junk rig of the 20th., as several methods have been perfected for giving the sails camber. The cambered junk rig points about 10 degrees higher than the flat sails designed by Hasler and by Colvin, which tacked through 100 to 110%, depending on wind and swell.

Everything claimed about the ease of handling and the low expense of building the junk rig is true. I know-I sailed a junk rigged boat 10,000 miles, after sailing a marconi-rigged fin keel sloop 6,000 miles. I would prefer even the old fashioned flat junk rig over the marconi sloop, and the modern cambered junk rig is even better. For those wanting to see the latest refinement, see my website for a wing sail - junk rig hybrid.
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Old 23-01-2008, 19:09   #22
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Aloha,

You might want to go here on the forum to check out some comments about Junks. Converting to Junk Rig? ( 1 2)
I had a friend with a Colvin Junk Rig and it really did not perform to windward very well that's why I don't care for them that much. However, he did sail the South Pacific on "Magic Dragon" in the 80s.
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Old 23-01-2008, 20:09   #23
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Modern Junk rigs

One could ask Tom Colvin--he uses them and has probably more experience with the system than most.

There are variants to the junk rig which turn them into a kind of wingsail. These are more efficient--but then one has additional complications which make them less easy to use.

With softly rigged vessels, for cheapness and power per area of cloth, the crab claw beats most rigs I think--that is a really cheap rig--and effective too--especially on a multihull.

If you want a rig with beauty-- a crab claw has to be it--especially if one has two or more of them--
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Old 23-01-2008, 21:46   #24
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Bayliner Buccaneers suck so the marconi rig sucks?

Magic Dragon the catamaran?

Colvin ( Colvin Site Index ) boats have, IMHO, too many sails, and not enough draft. If you want to judge a whole rig type by one boat, just imagine what you would think of the marconi rig if the Bayliner Buccaneer were the vessel you used as a benchmark.

http://www.buccaneersailing.org/front%20of%20slick.pdf

The most popular Colvin design has been the Gazelle-3 sails, one of which is a jib, only 3'7" of draft on a 42' steel boat, 18,000 pounds light ship, and the hulls have immersed hard chines, hard garboards, and quite a long keel.



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Aloha,

You might want to go here on the forum to check out some comments about Junks. Converting to Junk Rig? ( 1 2)
I had a friend with a Colvin Junk Rig and it really did not perform to windward very well that's why I don't care for them that much. However, he did sail the South Pacific on "Magic Dragon" in the 80s.
Regards,
JohnL
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Old 24-01-2008, 12:58   #25
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The "Magic Dragon" I knew was a Colvin designed mono-hull schooner and the hull was hard chined aluminum owned and sailed by Captain Peter Schiller. I believe it was around a 32 foot boat.
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Old 24-01-2008, 13:47   #26
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Small Colvin boat

That's mighty small for a Colvin design. See Colvin Site Index
Was it shoal draft? Did it have 3 sails? The only Colvin design I know of was a sharpie, hardly a sparkling type of hull to windward. In fact, most Colvin designs are shoal draft.

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The "Magic Dragon" I knew was a Colvin designed mono-hull schooner and the hull was hard chined aluminum owned and sailed by Captain Peter Schiller. I believe it was around a 32 foot boat.
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Old 24-01-2008, 14:41   #27
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Magic Dragon

I don't remember much about the boat. I haven't seen it since '84.
Here's an old scanned photo that was taken from way away.
JohnL
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Old 24-01-2008, 15:01   #28
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Looks like a Gazelle or a Saugeen Witch. Probably a Saugeen Witch, as it is the smaller of the two. Junk rigs and jibs don't mix, IMHO. You don't need 3 sails if you have a junk, because junk rigs are never hard to handle. With the wind aft of the beam, you have very little sail area that isn't blanketed when you have 3+ sails.

Colvin usually designed shoal draft boats, and so he went to extreme measures to keep the CE low, which probably is why he almost always use at least 3 sails in his rigs. Shoal draft boats in general aren't sparkling to windward, and long keel shoal draft boats like Colvin's designs, especially so. Colvin's junk sails were flat, which today's are not-the modern junk rig has camber.
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Old 25-01-2008, 16:21   #29
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This little schooner could be a Doxie.

Colvin used the slot effect and because the battens do bend the sails are not flat but curved--so they are a lot less like a garage door. Yes the centre of effort is low--a safety factor appreciated by lovers of low aspect ratio rigs. Although I like a crab claw for cheapness--it certainly has a higher centre of effort and a greater moment of heel--which is why they are better on multis.


Junk rigs have many advantages--especially for a solo sailor as they are more easily tended and can be dropped swiftly. Not the most efficient rig--but quite a practical one for the cruising vessel where high speed is not needed or desired.

For the kind of waters I sail in a shoal draft would be all I would want to own. My trimaran draws 1.2 metres--and that is about as much as I want.
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Old 25-01-2008, 17:17   #30
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Colvin designs

I've never seen a Doxy picture. The Doxy is design bigger than the Saugeen Witch, so it is probably the latter. See MULTI and Saugeen Witch .

I don't think Colvin Junk sails have camber. You can get a definitive answer by posting the question on http://groups.yahoo.com/group/junkrig/ where many Colvin design owners post. There is much discussion of giving Colvin's junk rigs camber there. You don't have to depart from the plans in any way to add camber, except for hinging the battens or giving the sail panels camber when you cut them. See home.triad.rr.com/boatbarn/arnek.htm . Flexible battens have been discarded as a method of giving the junk rig camber, because they give more camber in higher winds, exactly backwards of what is wanted.
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