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Old 13-04-2015, 10:44   #16
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Re: Jeanneau vs Beneteau

Haha. Ok will check the Ocean series. I don't see that though in their brand new line.
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Old 13-04-2015, 11:16   #17
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Re: Jeanneau vs Beneteau

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Haha. Ok will check the Ocean series. I don't see that though in their brand new line.
Ocean serie was a small run but they were built as no excuse cruisers incorporating most home comforts. They are highly sought after...
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Old 13-04-2015, 13:28   #18
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Re: Jeanneau vs Beneteau

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How's your 44DS, have you been sailing it for a long time now?

The 44DS is a fabulous boat. I've sailed it in a coastal setting extensively. I have the version with the portside third cabin and this provides enough room for our family of four to be extremely comfortable and also entertain a guest couple without sacrificing the salon as another berth. It's a smart layout for sure but won't necessarily compare to a 50ft boat in terms of what luxuries you can pack in there. No sail locker means you have to store sails somewhere in the living space or in a cockpit locker, reduced interior volume means no niceties like a washer or ice maker (if that's of value to you), no workshop area or expansive engine room and so forth... But like I said, it does have a very smart layout for a mid 40' boat and is tremendous fun to spend time on.

It's obviously built to a price point but I have found it reasonably well put together. I have backing plates behind deck fittings, the floor grid's major sections are cut out and the grid is laminated to the hull. There are 1" or higher fiddles around almost every horizontal surface as well as dedicated hand holds that allow one to traverse bow to stern, below, without having to let go.

It's definitely a cruising boat and doesn't have some of the performance options found on the 9 series (no mainsheet traveler, no line adjustable jib cars, etc...) I can still get it up into the 8.0 to 8.5 knot range with 15+ knots of wind so it isn't necessarily a slouch either. It's easy to sail and I basically single hand it when we are out and about.

You have lots of choice in today's day and age, especially if you also look at used, all at the same price point. At some point, once you work past all the must haves, it sort of becomes an emotional decision. For me this one was being sold in my local market and I liked the design, build and availability and more importantly I could afford it so I bought it.
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Old 13-04-2015, 13:35   #19
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Re: Jeanneau vs Beneteau

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Ocean serie was a small run but they were built as no excuse cruisers incorporating most home comforts. They are highly sought after...
Hum, I have not the same opinion. The basic difference between the Ocean series and the cruiser series was the center cockpit and the queen bed. The boats had not more stability (probably less - same ballast ratio higher CG) and were not better built.

The Bavaria vision is another story, the boats are better built, more expensive and the first ones had more power and stability then the cruiser series. Not sure regarding the actual line about that, but they sure have a better quality interior and an interior more adapted for long range cruising or to live aboard extensively.

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Old 15-04-2015, 00:44   #20
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Re: Jeanneau vs Beneteau

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The 44DS is a fabulous boat. I've sailed it in a coastal setting extensively. I have the version with the portside third cabin and this provides enough room for our family of four to be extremely comfortable and also entertain a guest couple without sacrificing the salon as another berth. It's a smart layout for sure but won't necessarily compare to a 50ft boat in terms of what luxuries you can pack in there. No sail locker means you have to store sails somewhere in the living space or in a cockpit locker, reduced interior volume means no niceties like a washer or ice maker (if that's of value to you), no workshop area or expansive engine room and so forth... But like I said, it does have a very smart layout for a mid 40' boat and is tremendous fun to spend time on.

It's obviously built to a price point but I have found it reasonably well put together. I have backing plates behind deck fittings, the floor grid's major sections are cut out and the grid is laminated to the hull. There are 1" or higher fiddles around almost every horizontal surface as well as dedicated hand holds that allow one to traverse bow to stern, below, without having to let go.

It's definitely a cruising boat and doesn't have some of the performance options found on the 9 series (no mainsheet traveler, no line adjustable jib cars, etc...) I can still get it up into the 8.0 to 8.5 knot range with 15+ knots of wind so it isn't necessarily a slouch either. It's easy to sail and I basically single hand it when we are out and about.

You have lots of choice in today's day and age, especially if you also look at used, all at the same price point. At some point, once you work past all the must haves, it sort of becomes an emotional decision. For me this one was being sold in my local market and I liked the design, build and availability and more importantly I could afford it so I bought it.
I like the 44 DS. Interesting to note that it can sail at 8 too 8.5 knots at 15 knots of wind. Are you using classic main with battens?

I'm now looking at the J 469 SO. It has more room below decks, a sail locker, main and jib led aft, performance features like main track and jib track. But I prefer in mast furling main so it will be easy to single hand. I wonder if it will sail much faster.

The Vision 46 seems to be a good alternative to 469 SO. Almost same price point based on dealer quotes.
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Old 15-04-2015, 04:54   #21
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Re: Jeanneau vs Beneteau

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I like the 44 DS. Interesting to note that it can sail at 8 too 8.5 knots at 15 knots of wind. Are you using classic main with battens?

I'm now looking at the J 469 SO. It has more room below decks, a sail locker, main and jib led aft, performance features like main track and jib track. But I prefer in mast furling main so it will be easy to single hand. I wonder if it will sail much faster.
...
Yes the 469 will sail considerably faster and will allow a better motion over the cockpit to go forward in demanding conditions.

An automatic main reef system with a traditional mainsail with battens allows for a bigger sail and a better sail shape making the boat faster. Regarding reefing it just requires more training, it will give a bit more work but it is an overall safer system even if today the problems with main furlers are very rare. Not a problem for a solo sailor. However, regarding safety and if you are going to sail offshore it is better to add one more reef (non automatic) to the sail. They come only with two.
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Old 15-04-2015, 07:35   #22
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Re: Jeanneau vs Beneteau

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I like the 44 DS. Interesting to note that it can sail at 8 too 8.5 knots at 15 knots of wind. Are you using classic main with battens?

I'm now looking at the J 469 SO. It has more room below decks, a sail locker, main and jib led aft, performance features like main track and jib track. But I prefer in mast furling main so it will be easy to single hand. I wonder if it will sail much faster.

The Vision 46 seems to be a good alternative to 469 SO. Almost same price point based on dealer quotes.
I have the in mast furling main. If I had the slab reefing main I would likely be able to hit those boat speeds with lower wind speed. It's light air conditions that a roller reefing mainsail is generally poor at. I have a roller furling A0 asymmetrical that I use to help with that issue.

The 44DS obviously isn't going to catch anyone's hair on fire with pure speed; it's primarily a cruising boat. But the underlying hull and rig is a decent design and doesn't necessarily leave you feeling that you have totally compromised.

Like Polux said, that 469 will be a faster boat for sure; and as you have seen, the extra three feet give you some nice interior volume for things like a sail locker and bigger galley. The drop transom on the 9 series is really fantastic and the cockpit space feels like a boat that's 10 feet longer. Having owned and sailed several boats both with slab reefing mains and the latest generation of in mast roller furling, I have a little different opinion on that than Polux. On a bigger boat like the 469 the loads on the main start to get kind of high. I have found it to be more of a handful to deal with a slab sail and have also found that the auto reefing / stack pack systems don't always work smoothly. So my personal preference, in a boat this size, is to generate the light wind drive with the use of a bigger headsail rather than a big main. This is obviously a generality and there are other nuances that I'm not getting into that might also sway your decision one way or the other. Perhaps if my sailing grounds were almost always light conditions I might choose differently as well.
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Old 15-04-2015, 09:13   #23
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Re: Jeanneau vs Beneteau

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... Having owned and sailed several boats both with slab reefing mains and the latest generation of in mast roller furling, I have a little different opinion on that than Polux. On a bigger boat like the 469 the loads on the main start to get kind of high. I have found it to be more of a handful to deal with a slab sail and have also found that the auto reefing / stack pack systems don't always work smoothly. So my personal preference, in a boat this size, is to generate the light wind drive with the use of a bigger headsail rather than a big main. This is obviously a generality and there are other nuances that I'm not getting into that might also sway your decision one way or the other. Perhaps if my sailing grounds were almost always light conditions I might choose differently as well.
I don't think we are disagreeing. I said that auto reefing on a bigger mainsail needs more work and training to dominate the system and the techniques needed. I said that that if one dominates the system it is a safer system in a way that cannot jam, even if the furling systems are very reliable now they have always a jamming potential. I said also that with the non furling main you can have a better sailshape on the sail, battens and more sail area and I think we agree about that.

I did not talk about preferences neither about what is best. Preferences are what they are and there are more sailors preferring furling systems then auto reefing on a traditional mainsail. Sailors that value more performance still prefer non furling systems as well as delivery skippers that have to cross oceans (or at least is what I have heard repetitively on this and other forums). Sailors that value more less work and less training to perform the job properly prefer furling mains.

Note that a furling main on an inexperienced sailor can be an advantage and increase safety since you have to know more and have the right training for use auto reffing properly on a mainsail, specially on a big sailboat.

Regarding the increasing importance of big frontal sails it is a mixed subject. On a big boat there is nothing more comfortable for the solo sailor than a self tacking jib...but that implies a big main to sail properly. And in case of really bad weather where I prefer to sail only with a frontal sail, a big genoa is an added risk and a lousy sail to go upwind. Off course you can have a cutter configuration but they are expensive and pretty rare these days. They are also complicated since they need additional removable stays.
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Old 15-04-2015, 09:23   #24
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Re: Jeanneau vs Beneteau

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I don't think we are disagreeing. I said that auto reefing on a bigger mainsail needs more work and training to dominate the system and the techniques....

Great follow up; I completely agree on all your points.
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Old 15-04-2015, 17:13   #25
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Re: Jeanneau vs Beneteau

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Great follow up; I completely agree on all your points.
Very helpful indeed, Polux and Garretw. I also made it a point to get proper training so I took the steps leading to get my RYA day skipper certification, but I don't have enough sailing experience yet. For a small female sailor like myself, ease of sailing single handed is an important feature for me.

I don't plan to race (at least given my current skill set) as my main objective for now is to cruise and do island hopping in coastal waters (always with land in sight). That said, I want to also make decent speed even in light wind conditions. It's also good to hear that modern boats have improved in mast furling systems to ensure less jamming. I read somewhere that in furling the main, it's good to put a little angle for a bit of tension, rather than straight head to wind.

I'm also wondering whether it makes sense for me to upgrade the genoa (I hear about standard size vs bigger like 106% vs 140%). Any opinions on that? Garretw also mentioned a roller furling asymmetrical, would that be a good option for me?

Thanks,
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Old 16-04-2015, 05:19   #26
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Re: Jeanneau vs Beneteau

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Very helpful indeed, Polux and Garretw. I also made it a point to get proper training so I took the steps leading to get my RYA day skipper certification, but I don't have enough sailing experience yet. For a small female sailor like myself, ease of sailing single handed is an important feature for me. ...
J
Excellent idea but don't stop in day skipper. For skippering a yacht it is supposed you have at least the knowledge of coastal skipper course and for offshore it is supposed you have the level of knowledge of a Yachtmaster offshore course.

You are going to learn there much more than here and have fun. If you want you can chose to have some of those courses on holidays in Portugal, France or Spain.

There sailing a 36ft/40ft offshore and talking with more experienced sailors you will learn if you should start with a 50fter or if you are ready for it or if it makes more sense to start with a smaller boat.



Regarding being a women and small a disadvantage for solo sailing let me tell you that offshore solo sailing is the only sport I know here the women, most of them small, play even with men in what regards top sport. There is no reason for in what regards cruising not to be the same.

Google some videos for Ellen MacArtur, Jeanne Gregoire, Sam Davies or Florence Arthaud and you will see what I mean.

Good luck and have fun
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Old 16-04-2015, 08:45   #27
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Re: Jeanneau vs Beneteau

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Excellent idea but don't stop in day skipper. For skippering a yacht it is supposed you have at least the knowledge of coastal skipper course and for offshore it is supposed you have the level of knowledge of a Yachtmaster offshore course.

You are going to learn there much more than here and have fun. If you want you can chose to have some of those courses on holidays in Portugal, France or Spain.

There sailing a 36ft/40ft offshore and talking with more experienced sailors you will learn if you should start with a 50fter or if you are ready for it or if it makes more sense to start with a smaller boat.



Regarding being a women and small a disadvantage for solo sailing let me tell you that offshore solo sailing is the only sport I know here the women, most of them small, play even with men in what regards top sport. There is no reason for in what regards cruising not to be the same.

Google some videos for Ellen MacArtur, Jeanne Gregoire, Sam Davies or Florence Arthaud and you will see what I mean.

Good luck and have fun
Thanks, that's very encouraging. I took my Day Skipper practical in Sydney and the places we sailed are really nice. I'm sure it would be great to sail around Europe, so that's a good idea to take my next RYA course there. But I think Coaster Skipper requires some sailing miles logged which I don't have yet. That's for a next goal.

Fair winds!
J
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Old 22-05-2015, 13:51   #28
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Re: Jeanneau vs Beneteau

Back to the discussion of the 509 vs 50DS. The 50 DS is a lively boat, particularly with the classic main. Wouldn't even consider an in-mast main, particularly if you are short handed. Its a disaster in waiting if it jams. The DS has one important feature in that it has a dedicated nav station. The hulls are somewhat different with the lwl advantage going to the 509. The 509 cannot get the upgraded engine to 110 hp which is useful primarily in a chop. No higher speed however. The DS has better storage and is a little better finished off. However, the window treatment is more attractive and modern than the DS. So a lot of this is personal preference vs pricing. As for Bavaria, not well finished and iffy resale.
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Old 23-05-2015, 16:30   #29
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Jeanneau vs Beneteau

As the owner of a 1 year old DS50 with a classic mast 75 hp yanmar sd60 saildrive, all I can say if it was around 45000 less than a similar spec 509, it might be an older design but still looks modern and the 2 cabin version has fantastic sized cabins. I'm sure it will be changed soon but it's such good value it's selling very well.
No 100hp option yanmar, they don't meet emission standards, even DS53 has the 75hp.
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