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Old 10-12-2012, 21:47   #76
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Re: It seems the more we look and read, the more confused we get about the boat to bu

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Now if you were buying a car would you buy one designed 30 years ago?
Well that depends on what I wanted to do with it. Driving across the US on a major highway I would go with the newer vehicle with the better gas mileage. If I was going to go trekking thru the middle of nowhere I would prefer the older vehicle as it would be easier to work on myself. As an example an older jeep.

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A washing machine designed C 1980?
When I was a kid in the 1970's we had a 50ish year old Speed Queen wringer washer at our lake cabin. Was it the most convenient machine, no, but it did the job just fine thank you and the alternative was hand washing or saving all the laundry for our return home after a week or two's stay.
Google Image Result for http://www.automaticwasher.info/TD/AWJPEG/VINTAGE/2010/mrb627++5-14-2010-09-38-32.jpg

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A computer designed in 1980?
Once again depends on what it was to be used for. A PC, no thanks, but they have a design life measured in years and a price point to match. Production boats have a design life measured in decades and a price point to match so mistakes are a LOT harder to live with economically.

For industrial uses a lot of older computers do just fine and no economical alternative has been developed, no need to. A case in point is NASA's Space Shuttle which mostly used 1970's vintage computers onboard all the way to the bitter end this year.

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A 30 year old seatbelt?
I would take the 30yr old seat belt over the 17-25y old automatic seat belts with their Mickey Mouse Race tracks any day of the week; Seat belt - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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If you were betting on the Olympic 100 meters sprint would you put $5 on a 1980s athlete or one from this year? 1980 Allan Wells 10.25; 2012 Usain Bolt 9.65
In the Olympic 100m I'd go with Bolt. In other Olympic sports it depends. In the long jump I would stick with Bob Beamon's Olympic record from 1968 (44yr ago) which still stands. So this example depends on exactly which event you pick.

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If you were in Hospital and they wheeled in the Machine that Goes Bing. would you want the 30 year old one, or the new one?
Well, since the first Machine that Goes Bing appeared 29yr ago (Monty Python's The Meaning of Life, 1983) and to the best of my knowledge nobody has bothered to come come out with an upgrade to a machine whose only function was to go "Bing", I would be happy with that one, or they could just skip it.

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So why is it that only sailing boats have gone backwards?
Or have they?
It's not that they have gone backwards in the last 30yr, but that it is very hard to tell what design features have regressed and which progressed and what the overall effect is.

Looking back at the recent history of sailboat design one can look at the IOR hull shapes which had a 15 to 20 year trend life. While they in general are not patently bad boats, I think it is generally agreed that they were not great for anything except racing under IOR handicap. One can also look at the trend of winged keels on production boats that went from the mid-80's until about 2000 before really fading away. This begs the question of what design features that are popular today will prove to have just been a fad that fades away in a decade or two instead of being an actual design improvement that lasts well into the future.

The trade-off of choosing an older boat is that you can avoid the duds that are only noted in hindsight at the cost of foregoing some of the advantages of current design. It is a form of conservatism that some people ascribe to.
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Old 11-12-2012, 12:28   #77
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Re: It seems the more we look and read, the more confused we get about the boat to bu

And I should add that your "starter" boat could actually end up being your "perfect" boat. There are plenty of people who feel that those 1980's designs are superior to today's models - you might be one of them!
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Old 11-12-2012, 12:52   #78
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Re: It seems the more we look and read, the more confused we get about the boat to bu

There have been many visits upon "New" designs at boat shows in the past few years, and all I can say is that I am very, very happy with my choice of selecting an older boat and design when we did.

EDIT: It has been my experience that most modern production boats have been made with production cost and profitability at the most concern leading to lesser quality of craftsmanship.
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Old 11-12-2012, 13:48   #79
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Re: It seems the more we look and read, the more confused we get about the boat to bu

I think you guys are going about this totally backwards and upside down. The best advice so far is to get a small boat that you will own for 2-3 years. Get an old one, not a new one so you'll sell it for exactly what you bought it for (a bit more because you fixed it up while learning about boat maintenance).

It will be a bit stinky because it's been unloved for a few years. Clean it up and it will be fine.

Learn what you want, not what a bunch of people on the internet think you want. I wouldn't touch a full keel boat with a 10' pole, but many will not set foot on a fin keeler out of sight of land.

There's no rush. Don't try to buy the perfect boat now, you don't know what the perfect boat (for you) is yet. You'll just screw it up.

For the love of Pete, don't buy new! New boats are great (many of them), but they are way too expensive! You'll never be able to do anything fun with the boat if you're shackled by debt. 30 year old boats aren't better, they're good enough and they're actually affordable.

I've been through the same path you're embarking on in the last few years and I'm local to you. PM me if you want to give me a call and have a chat about things, including the local market.
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Old 11-12-2012, 14:33   #80
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Re: It seems the more we look and read, the more confused we get about the boat to bu

I'd recommend hiring Bob Perry to help you choose - yes "The" Bob Perry who has designed some of the best cruising boats out there. I expect he normally deals with larger boats than you have in mind but can't hurt to ask.

His consulting service costs $500 and he'll help you right through the purchase negotiation and refit. Best deal in boating.

Robert H Perry Yachts Designers Inc. - CONSULTATION SERVICE
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Old 12-12-2012, 05:10   #81
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Re: It seems the more we look and read, the more confused we get about the boat to bu

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There have been many visits upon "New" designs at boat shows in the past few years, and all I can say is that I am very, very happy with my choice of selecting an older boat and design when we did.

EDIT: It has been my experience that most modern production boats have been made with production cost and profitability at the most concern leading to lesser quality of craftsmanship.
Having worked as the buyer for two manufacturers I totally agree. This is not to say that there are new boats out there that are being built with a high degree of craftsmanship where quality over quantity is the rule. However, you will pay a premium for Blue Water Quality coming off the line.

RT
PS HC, nice choice....but I'm biased.
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Old 12-12-2012, 05:36   #82
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Re: It seems the more we look and read, the more confused we get about the boat to bu

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Having worked as the buyer for two manufacturers I totally agree. This is not to say that there are new boats out there that are being built with a high degree of craftsmanship where quality over quantity is the rule. However, you will pay a premium for Blue Water Quality coming off the line.
Youll pay a premium for craftmanship all right and there are many to choose from, whether or not that just results in fancy teak cabinets or actually results in so-called "blue water" boat is another thing entirely.

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EDIT: It has been my experience that most modern production boats have been made with production cost and profitability at the most concern leading to lesser quality of craftsmanship.
ReMetau could you give me examples , have you owned a "production" boat.


Im really tired with mis-informed elitist claptrap spouted in this thread. Of course there are some prodiuction boats that are not suitable for extended offshore crusing, no matter what you do to them, BUT, on the other hand a modern mid size beneteau, jeanneau, Hanse etc is more then adequate ( notice "adequate") and costs a loss less then fancy ones. And you know what, thats exactly what people are doing with them.

Im not knocking your choice of boat, I see advantages in them and disadvantages , just as I see the same in modern designs. All with a bit of preparation and prudent skippering will get you where you want to go. A fool will loose a quality boat just as fast as a mass produced one.

stop running down perfectly good boats, especially since all you are really doing is justifying your own purchase decision.


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Old 12-12-2012, 05:46   #83
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Re: It seems the more we look and read, the more confused we get about the boat to bu

Terminal city girl,

We are going RTW in a couple of years. I'll tell you our experience. First boat, a 22 footer with an outboard motor. Great boat, we learned to sail in her. After 3 years, sold her (for what we paid) and bought an almost new 33 footer. Got an indoor toilet and standing room in the cabin, hot water, refrigeration, etc etc. Sailed her for 4 years. Got good at handling a bigger boat. Sold her (bought for usd 100, sold for usd 85 after 4 years). Now we have a 40 footer, which is the boat we will RTW in.

Unless you are VERY enamored with the idea of going small, I'd say that a 40 footer is about as small a boat as I would like to RTW in. Any smaller and you get lots of storage issues, enough water issues, enough battery issues, refrigeration issues, and so on and so on and so on.

Our current boat cost us usd 125. It is 6 years old and is in virtually new condition.

So my advice is buy something around 32-34 feet, and sail the hell out of it. You'll almost certainly find out that it is too small for RTW. Then look for something bigger and sell the smaller one.

If you are careful, you can buy something, sail it for a couple of years and sell it for the same (or nearly).

Do not get fooled into thinking a 34 footer is a great RTW boat. If you must buy the RTW boat first off - get one at least 40 feet.

Modern production boats (mine is a Jeanneau) are just fine for RTW. Lots of them have gone around and are going around. So don't let some of these "traditionalist" tell you anything else.

I sail my Jeanneau up here in the Baltic, Lat 56,57 degrees, which most would consider high lat. Sailing in gale force winds is NOT unusual, we do it all the time. I've yet to have any issues with the seaworthiness of the boat. And while the waves here in the Baltic are not as high as you will find on the atlantic or pacific, they are shorter and steeper. So the ride is sometimes entertaining, to say the least.

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Old 12-12-2012, 05:49   #84
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Re: It seems the more we look and read, the more confused we get about the boat to bu

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Modern production boats (mine is a Jeanneau) are just fine for RTW. Lots of them have gone around and are going around. So don't let some of these "traditionalist" tell you anything else.

I sail my Jeanneau up here in the Baltic, Lat 56,57 degrees, which most would consider high lat. Sailing in gale force winds is NOT unusual, we do it all the time. I've yet to have any issues with the seaworthiness of the boat. And while the waves here in the Baltic are not as high as you will find on the atlantic or pacific, they are shorter and steeper. So the ride is sometimes entertaining, to say the least.
Like I say , just listen to the people who are "doing" it. good stuff , it bears out my views entirely. I agree that 40 feet is realistically a RTW minimum these days.
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Old 12-12-2012, 07:32   #85
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Re: It seems the more we look and read, the more confused we get about the boat to bu

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It seems the more we look and read, the more confused we get about the boat to buy
According to Albert Einstein: “The knowledge that we have can be analogous to a circle. Inside the circle is what we know and what we call knowledge; outside the circle is what we don't know and need to explore. As our circle of knowledge expands, so does the circumference of darkness surrounding it. So the more we know, the more we feel that we don't know.”

The more knowledge you gain, the less certain you are of it.
ie: A man with one watch is certain about time. A man with two watches isn't.
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Old 12-12-2012, 09:19   #86
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Re: It seems the more we look and read, the more confused we get about the boat to bu

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According to Albert Einstein: “The knowledge that we have can be analogous to a circle. Inside the circle is what we know and what we call knowledge; outside the circle is what we don't know and need to explore. As our circle of knowledge expands, so does the circumference of darkness surrounding it. So the more we know, the more we feel that we don't know.”

The more knowledge you gain, the less certain you are of it.
ie: A man with one watch is certain about time. A man with two watches isn't.
Love it, Gord. Great point.
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Old 12-12-2012, 09:23   #87
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Re: It seems the more we look and read, the more confused we get about the boat to bu

One other thing to consider: The number one thing that prevents people heading off into the sunset is cash. If you're going to take a few years to learn your skills, consider not only the capital cost and maintenance cost of a larger boat, but also the moorage cost.

It is very, very difficult to find moorage for boats in the 35' range in Vancouver, but easier in 27' range. You pay a premium for what you can get. I pay about $600 a month for a 35' boat here (closer to 40' with dinghy and bowsprit). You'll pay half that for a 27' boat and have a much easier time finding a place to put it.

Also note that mooring balls and anchoring isn't a good option in Vancouver at all. A few do the anchoring thing, but it's tough (have to constantly move from False Cr. to the exposed area at Kits Beach and back due to anchoring restrictions in False Cr.
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Old 12-12-2012, 09:43   #88
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Re: It seems the more we look and read, the more confused we get about the boat to bu

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...Im really tired with mis-informed elitist claptrap spouted in this thread. Of course there are some prodiuction boats that are not suitable for extended offshore crusing, no matter what you do to them, BUT, on the other hand a modern mid size beneteau, jeanneau, Hanse etc is more then adequate ( notice "adequate") and costs a loss less then fancy ones. And you know what, thats exactly what people are doing with them...
Considering their budget and that they would like to stay out of debt...

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Our budget is ideally under $50k so we won't be travelling to boat shows afar but we are keeping an open mind - we could consider financing if we decided on something new but we'd prefer living without debt.

And we will make a decision eventually MarkJ, it's just our thinking is evolving... While I am getting impatient, my other half is not so much. Plus it's winter here, cold and rain, not our favourite sailing conditions.
.... could you maybe suggest some new boats that might work for them in or near that budget?

I believe that is all a lot of posters are trying to do here. Making it clear to them that an older boat doesn't have to mean that it is an 'unsafe' boat.

I don't think that is any more elitist than you questioning some of us for living in a house that has the amenities of one 30-50 years ago or driving an older vehicle if we so desire (both of which my wife and I do quite happily).

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Old 12-12-2012, 10:17   #89
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Re: It seems the more we look and read, the more confused we get about the boat to bu

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Youll pay a premium for craftmanship all right and there are many to choose from, whether or not that just results in fancy teak cabinets or actually results in so-called "blue water" boat is another thing entirely.



ReMetau could you give me examples , have you owned a "production" boat.


Im really tired with mis-informed elitist claptrap spouted in this thread. Of course there are some prodiuction boats that are not suitable for extended offshore crusing, no matter what you do to them, BUT, on the other hand a modern mid size beneteau, jeanneau, Hanse etc is more then adequate ( notice "adequate") and costs a loss less then fancy ones. And you know what, thats exactly what people are doing with them.

Im not knocking your choice of boat, I see advantages in them and disadvantages , just as I see the same in modern designs. All with a bit of preparation and prudent skippering will get you where you want to go. A fool will loose a quality boat just as fast as a mass produced one.

stop running down perfectly good boats, especially since all you are really doing is justifying your own purchase decision.


Dave
Completely agree. This and most other threads show a real bias toward the poster's own boat or past boats.
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Old 12-12-2012, 10:21   #90
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Re: It seems the more we look and read, the more confused we get about the boat to bu

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Completely agree. This and most other threads show a real bias toward the poster's own boat or past boats.
Which is totally rediculous in this case since we all know the right boat is the Niagara 35!

(Actually, I think it might be a great choice for them, but only after they spend a couple years on a Catalina 27, Haida 26, or similar...)
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