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Old 09-12-2012, 17:40   #61
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Re: It seems the more we look and read, the more confused we get about the boat to bu

This is such a ridiculous, made up statement I had to post.

1). Macgregors are all over the Bahamas.

2). A Macgregor "engineer" - gee, did you talk to Roger? Not a chance anyone at Macgregor told you this.

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Originally Posted by Wavewacker View Post
I called the McGreggor boat folks and talked to an engineer, I was inquiring about a new 26X. I asked about using it in the ICW and maybe the Bahamas, he said it was really intended for protected waters, his suggestion in keeping in the price range was to get an older Flicka or Albin. He was saying that in the 70s and 80s, glass boats were over built, much stronger and heavier than those today. Manufactures were still new to fiberglass in the 60s, 70s and even 80s and as materials and knowledge progressed they found they could save tons of money building lighter.

If someone told me I had to be in a car accident, I'd take a 52 Buick (with seat belts as an upgrade) over a '12 Honda.

I wish I was in the stomping grounds of the OP, I'd be looking for those fantastic steel pilothouse cutters or motorsailors thay have up there. If you're concerned about strength seems to me you'd consider steel or an older thick glass boat.
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Old 09-12-2012, 17:52   #62
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Re: It seems the more we look and read, the more confused we get about the boat to bu

Check out the Wauquiez Pretorien 35. No aft head, but a great boat nonetheless. Built very very well, but still a fast boat for it's size and build. There are always a few for sale in the Seattle area, as there was an active dealer there - still the same folks selling the boats. I know of three that are currently sailing in the pacific islands right now...

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Old 09-12-2012, 18:07   #63
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Re: It seems the more we look and read, the more confused we get about the boat to bu

What's your budget?


IMHO you are really better off buying a solid boat built from 1985-1995, hopefully one that is not very well-equipped. You'll get a hull that is better build than the hulls of the modern boats, and you won't be paying for outdated electronics and other older equipment.


You can add modern bells and whistles as you go along. The Niagara, Pretorian, Baba 35, Bristol 35.5 and a number of other boats of that vintage are all good choices.

The big tradeoff is the teak on these boats, which is expensive to keep up (or else it looks like crap).

I would stay away from slow full keelers in the 30 ft range: Westsails, Rawsons and the like. Their lack of pointing ability can really be frustrating, and they're just too small inside.
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Old 09-12-2012, 18:11   #64
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Re: It seems the more we look and read, the more confused we get about the boat to bu

Terminalcitygirl,

There's a time when you have to get off your own ass and make your own decisions.



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Old 09-12-2012, 20:45   #65
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Re: It seems the more we look and read, the more confused we get about the boat to bu

Our budget is ideally under $50k so we won't be travelling to boat shows afar but we are keeping an open mind - we could consider financing if we decided on something new but we'd prefer living without debt.

And we will make a decision eventually MarkJ, it's just our thinking is evolving... While I am getting impatient, my other half is not so much. Plus it's winter here, cold and rain, not our favourite sailing conditions.
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Old 09-12-2012, 20:57   #66
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TCG, since you're looking at 28 footers, have you looked at Bristol Channel Cutter's? Maybe something in your area. From what I've seen, they tend to cost more than other boats but look like it might work for what you're looking for.
Lol !!
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Old 10-12-2012, 03:39   #67
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Re: It seems the more we look and read, the more confused we get about the boat to bu

Quote:
IMHO you are really better off buying a solid boat built from 1985-1995, hopefully one that is not very well-equipped. You'll get a hull that is better build than the hulls of the modern boats, and you won't be paying for outdated electronics and other older equipment.
why what happened in 1996!!!
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Old 10-12-2012, 06:36   #68
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Re: It seems the more we look and read, the more confused we get about the boat to bu

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
Boat building has always been a business. All manufacturers that want to stay in business build to the bottom line.

Builders never built to maximum standards, they pick a compromise to meet the intended customer and market.

overbuilt on engineering terms is a negative. It means you don't know what you are doing.


Of course never let facts get in the way of a good argumentent. Tayanas delaminate,Valients have osmosis. There is no " good old days " what " proven designs" perhaps you mean IOR designs ( see fastnet ) or surely not Wetsnails or perhaps Chichesters boat , ( which he called a complete dog. Maybe we should all have pilot cutters. Funny jimmy Cornell is in a modern design , so it Beth and evens and of course there is dashew

Old designs are good of that means you get them cheap other then that they have few redeeming features.if buying a good second hand gets you sailing great.

As to low end production boats. ( a) I don't know who you means (b) what abandonments or ( c) oil canning, what is a fact , crews have always abandoned boats that were survivable. That hasn't changed . Today's many more 1000s are boating then 30 -40 years ago.



The last thing you should do is listen to any "blue water" nonsense or co called boat lists. I would ( a) sail anything the French sail across oceans ( b) talk to delivery skippers. But more importantly build knowledge and sail and decide yourself. There is no perfect boat only one that is perfect for you.

Beneteau ,Catalinas, Hanse etc as well as HRs etc will all do the job. Buy what you like and can aford.



Firstly you do not get more for your money on an old boat , you " may" get more but old system fail any one with an old boat will tell you they replace a lot. The pick axe may last 100 years bit it just had 10 handles and 8 new heads sort of thing. Old masts are not better then new ones, equally old rigging , old sails, old engines etc eyc etc.

Tankage and storage need to be appropriate to the journeys considered that's all watermakers change things as do the preponderance of things called " supermarkets" the world is a more homogenous place unfortunately.

My advice always buy bigger IF you can aford it. A 45 foot new or nearly new production cruiser is always better then an old boat 10 feet shorter.

Dave
>Boat building has always been a business. All manufacturers
>that want to stay in business build to the bottom line.

>Builders never built to maximum standards, they pick a
>compromise to meet the intended customer and market.

So you agree they build to the bottom line and never built to maximum standards. As someone already point out, it is the manufacturer that comes out ahead at the expense of the end user. Thank you for making my point.


>overbuilt on engineering terms is a negative. It means you
>don't know what you are doing.

There is a fine line between sh*t and shinola. To clarify, sh*t is sh*t and there are boats out there that qualify. One should not venture too far from the dock in these. However, shinola is a bit more difficult to define but it is basically main stream production boats built to the bottom line. They are built for coastal cruising and need modification structurally to bring them up to speed for Blue Water. Cross oceans with these at your own peril.

Dave there is a reason “OVERBUILT” is NOT a handicap, it is the weight of water. Remember, one cubic meter of water weighs 1000Kg or approximately one ton. You know how many modern boats I walked away from because when the light is right it shines through the hull revealing thin chopper gun construction? Not to mention a little pressure with the palm of your hand and the bottom or topsides oil cans. I’ll take overbuilt any day. And that’s from an “engineers stand point”.

With regard to bigger is better, it seems we do agree, as long as you can afford it. Bigger means usually better handling in a seaway, better accommodations, more water and storage capability. FYI, watermakers do fail and last check there are no Blue Water Supermarkets.

BTW, I bought one of those so called cheap junk China Boats for under 30K with 10-15K needed to bring her back to world cruising capability.

37 slocum 898

Not only did this rare bird come with an upgraded rig, she has two Pro Furl NC-42’s and a Furlex in mast main furler. These two features alone were more than the price of the boat if purchased new. Oh, almost forgot, she also has refrigeration, Marine AC and a list of other usable goodies (too numerous to list).

OP, don’t let anyone tell you differently. If you look you WILL get more for your money in a well found used boat.

RT
PS As far as sailing anything French….. When in France buy French. When in America….. I’d stick to their wine and cheese.
PPS They do make a fine mast….
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Old 10-12-2012, 09:01   #69
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Re: It seems the more we look and read, the more confused we get about the boat to bu

1996 ?!

What happened in 1996 was that Bill (excuse me, William Jefferson) Clinton won the election against Bob Dole and H. Ross Perot, and naval architects and skilled fiberglass mechanics fled the country by the thousand. Boatyards collapsed, and half-finished hulls had to be hauled away and buried in unmarked mass graves.

It was a very bad year for boats and boaters. Honest.
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Old 10-12-2012, 09:40   #70
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pirate Re: It seems the more we look and read, the more confused we get about the boat to bu

I've had 14 boats and still looking...
GBN makes some excellent points about the modern production boat.. my two Bendi's were comfortable, well laid out with good galley and toilet space.. the 331 was a 2001 ex Moorings which cost me $60K back in '06..
Are you just looking locally..? never thought about just getting on a plane and going somewhere with lotsa boats at great prices and in a great location... just fly and buy then sort out the boring crap back home later.. works for me everytime...
But then the older boat also has merits.. a Westerly Longbow '71 was an excellent boat I lived on for 4yrs UK-Med... I'd happily do it again... it just fitted nicely..
Its what suits you that counts...
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Old 10-12-2012, 09:54   #71
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Re: It seems the more we look and read, the more confused we get about the boat to bu

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Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
1996 ?!

What happened in 1996 was that Bill (excuse me, William Jefferson) Clinton won the election against Bob Dole and H. Ross Perot, and naval architects and skilled fiberglass mechanics fled the country by the thousand. Boatyards collapsed, and half-finished hulls had to be hauled away and buried in unmarked mass graves.

It was a very bad year for boats and boaters. Honest.


Honestly BS. Name one well known American NA who left because of Clinton. The boat business boomed along with everything else during the Clinton years. I would know, those were our busiest years with loads of new big boat purchases.
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Old 10-12-2012, 10:32   #72
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Re: It seems the more we look and read, the more confused we get about the boat to bu

Two books that may help you define some criteria for offshore/cruising features:

Nigel Calder - "Cruisers Handbook" This book is in two parts: the first discusses features, the second has good basic navigation and repair ideas.

"Desirable and Undesirable Characteristics of Offshore Yachts"
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Old 10-12-2012, 10:45   #73
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Re: It seems the more we look and read, the more confused we get about the boat to bu

Quote:
What happened in 1996 was that Bill (excuse me, William Jefferson) Clinton won the election against Bob Dole and H. Ross Perot, and naval architects and skilled fiberglass mechanics fled the country
You're probably thinking of the 1991 luxury tax on boats, which was a total disaster for boat builders, signed by President Bush (Sr). It was repealed a couple of years later, during the Clinton administration.
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Old 10-12-2012, 11:30   #74
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Re: It seems the more we look and read, the more confused we get about the boat to bu

Some good advice here but a lot of silliness as well as people merely justify the kind of boat they have or want. A few comments based on 40 years of sailing and owning sailing many boats - daysailing, racing, holiday cruising, now 30k miles into a circumna.

One problem is that there is no boat that will meet all your needs. The right boat for Vancouver liveaboard is not going to be the best boat for Mexico or going further - the demands are just very different in terms of climate, storage needs, sailing character, etc.

Secondly you cannot know what boat is right for YOU, until you get quite a bit of experience, because we are all different. We have friends out here on 27' Vegas and on 56' Oysters and they far all having a grand time whether their investment is $10k or $2 million.

There is no assurance that a newer or even new boat will be problem free. We have two friends with million dollar plus boats who have had major problems. One is on its fourth mast in ten years.

I would suggest that you buy a learner boat for a few years. Spend $15k and learn about how you relate to sailing. Later you will have a much better idea of direction.
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Old 10-12-2012, 19:05   #75
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Re: It seems the more we look and read, the more confused we get about the boat to bu

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I would suggest that you buy a learner boat for a few years. Spend $15k and learn about how you relate to sailing. Later you will have a much better idea of direction.
+1. At $15k, it's hard to go VERY wrong in terms of losing money on a boat. If it is sailing when you get it, you will have a boat that will very quickly teach you what you do and don't like in a sailboat.

Sail it and live aboard it - you don't have to liveaboard right away, try out a few overnights, then some weekends if you like.

Later, you can sell for $12k taking "only" a $3k loss on a boat intentionally purchased as a loss-leader, rather than taking a $10k beating on a boat that wasn't what you wanted or needed, was too big for you to handle, and depreciated much more quickly than you expected.

(you might even break even on your starter if you get a good deal and do excellent maintenance!)
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