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Old 09-12-2012, 08:15   #31
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I have been there...so many boats many with points you like. I suggest looking in the Great Lakes for a few reasons. No salt water reduces wear from aging substantially. In addition we have real winters and boats don't get much use. In Lake Superior the sailing season is Late May to Sept, with June, July and August as the heavy use months. The last good thing about Northern boats is setting out in the cold drys the fiberglass. While normal wear and tear will still be seen I suggest taking the age of the boat and divide by 3. A 12 year old boat has about 4 years of use...I would add a Catalina 34 to your list.
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Old 09-12-2012, 08:19   #32
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Re: It seems the more we look and read, the more confused we get about the boat to bu

This thread is starting to sound like Deja Vu all over again. Don’t be fooled into thinking that a 30 year old boat is passé and should be dismissed based on the fact that modern design has come a long way. Of course this is true but it is also true that manufacturers are building boats based on their bottom line and they build to minimum not to maximum standards. When you are dealing with the ocean, “overbuilt” is not a handicap, it is in MHO a requirement for long passages.

The reason 30 year old boats are still out there is because they WERE “overbuilt”, are proven designs, have gone the distance and are capable of doing so again and again, whereas a number of low end production boats (you know the manufacturers) have been abandoned at sea for structural failure and their tendency to oil can. A good list of these older proven world cruisers can be had by reading the threads, “Blue Water Cruising Capability” and “Westsail and Sister Boats. Before you put down a deposit on ANY production boat I would read the manufacturers forum discussions for that model. Then you will know what I am talking about.

The best advice I could give you is bigger IS better . Tankage and storage if you plan on long voyages is a major consideration. A three to five foot increase in length will make a world of difference. If you search you will find one in your price range. It IS a buyers market.

Whatever boat you choose make sure it is surveyed from keel up to the top of the mast, sea trial her and put her through the paces before purchase. Remember, you will always get more for your money in a well found older boat.

RT
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Old 09-12-2012, 08:56   #33
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Originally Posted by RabidRabbit
Hey Dave, I must disagree with you on your car quality thoughts. Most cars 30 years old are much stronger, as they still built them from metal. The only thing new cars have on old ones, is gas mileage and emissions. New cars run great till they dont and then people replace them. Kia, Hyundia, ect. even brand new Audis are junk. Unless your a banker or somthing, with the funds to repair it. The car of yesterday was very repairable by the average joe. Todays OBDII and electronics makes it more like a DVD player or laptop needing diagnostic equipment to service. So sure if you dont work on your own car, new is better. But no way its going to last 30 years. Not like a good old volvo 240 or anything '80s volkswagen. Todays cars are built not to last.
Sorry I've worked in car assembly technology.

Today's cars are more durable and safer. nCAP testing shows this. Strong is not a useful advantage for a car.

Older cars has rust issues , terribly poor accident survivabilty and short lives. I built and designed equipment for Audi. It's latest generation cars build on the back of their technology And they are safer and more durable

By the way I have OBD kit. I much prefer modern diagnostics keeps the messers , DIY butchers and chancers away from " fixing" it I don't want the average joe repairing a car my finely crafted computer aided robot put together. Everytime you take a spanner to a modern engine you undo precision assembly.

Repair today is a function of Labour cost and the practicality of training " mechanics" to do the job of design engineers and high precision robots. In essence the average mechanic can't be left anywhere near a fly by wire engine. Hence the " replace it " culture.

Modern cars most definitely have design lives that are better then older cars. I know it for a fact and I know it from the design parameters.

Simply because you could take a #8 ring spanner to your 30 year car is not a definition of better.

The car today applies modern automated production, advanced design , advanced electronics to make a 100 year old heap of iron a whole lot better. Just leave it to the experts to fix it. Or buy a new one , we'd need the exports.

pS Kia have 7 year warranties now, most old cars were in crushers by then

Ps modern Audi are the dogs dangleys. , give me one over a Porsche anyway ( most can beat Porsches anyway )

Dave
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Old 09-12-2012, 09:09   #34
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It depends on how one defines backwards I guess. Modern running shoes with all those funky colors in the soles is on the surface an advance of technology. This "advance" leads to my $100 (plus often) shoes failing in 1 year as opposed to the 5 years I got out of $7 shoes 30 years ago that were molded in a single material.

It is well accepted among woodworkers that Stanley hand planes circa before 1950 or so are better than the post 1950 period, and it took modern companies such as Lie Nelson and Veritas to get things back in order again in modern times.

Why do I always find myself replacing zippers on coats that I didn't have to do in my youth?

Advancing technology can be used for good or evil from the consumer point of view. A blanket generalization cannot be made.

Boats of both eras have their merits depending on what one wants to optimize.

Boulter
You are mixing up costs and quality. Stanley today makes mass market tools. That is a conscious market move to sell to the burgeoning DIY market place.

Take what it cost to buy a high quality pre 1950 plane convert it to modern dollars , then even spend half that and you'll get a precision tool better then your 1950s one.

I make no comment as to one that spends 100 dollars on any type of shoe.

As to zippers. I don't see that issue. But plastic zippers today are two a penny. High quality ones still are pricy.

Technology advancement isnt good or evil. You benefit from the understanding and science and that is iterative.


Boats of past era do not have merits. They merely were built with the trade offs , understanding of science and the intended market in mind

Yachting was the preserve of the very rich , then the rich, them the wealthy and now arguably the modestly wealthy. If you want to buy a high quality yacht just like that high quality plane , then deduct the appropriate boat bucks from your bank account.

If you have limited resources then you buy the equivalent of today's Stanley plane. It's mass produced, has its limitations , costs a fraction of the equivalent yesterday equivalent and you know what. It planes that piece of wood just fine for most people. Will I hand it onto my kids , nope, but who cares he'll buy three of them.

Next you'll be convincing me the commodore Pet was a better PC !!!
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Old 09-12-2012, 09:28   #35
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Re: It seems the more we look and read, the more confused we get about the boat to bu

I called the McGreggor boat folks and talked to an engineer, I was inquiring about a new 26X. I asked about using it in the ICW and maybe the Bahamas, he said it was really intended for protected waters, his suggestion in keeping in the price range was to get an older Flicka or Albin. He was saying that in the 70s and 80s, glass boats were over built, much stronger and heavier than those today. Manufactures were still new to fiberglass in the 60s, 70s and even 80s and as materials and knowledge progressed they found they could save tons of money building lighter.

If someone told me I had to be in a car accident, I'd take a 52 Buick (with seat belts as an upgrade) over a '12 Honda.

I wish I was in the stomping grounds of the OP, I'd be looking for those fantastic steel pilothouse cutters or motorsailors thay have up there. If you're concerned about strength seems to me you'd consider steel or an older thick glass boat.
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Old 09-12-2012, 09:37   #36
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Originally Posted by vtcapo
This thread is starting to sound like Deja Vu all over again. Don’t be fooled into thinking that a 30 year old boat is passé and should be dismissed based on the fact that modern design has come a long way. Of course this is true but it is also true that manufacturers are building boats based on their bottom line and they build to minimum not to maximum standards.
Boat building has always been a business. All manufacturers that want to stay in business build to the bottom line.

Builders never built to maximum standards, they pick a compromise to meet the intended customer and market.

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When you are dealing with the ocean, “overbuilt” is not a handicap, it is in MHO a requirement for long passages.

The reason 30 year old boats are still out there is because they WERE “overbuilt”, are proven designs, have gone the distance and are capable of doing so again and again, whereas a number of low end production boats (you know the manufacturers) have been abandoned at sea for structural failure and their tendency to oil can.
overbuilt on engineering terms is a negative. It means you don't know what you are doing.


Of course never let facts get in the way of a good argumentent. Tayanas delaminate,Valients have osmosis. There is no " good old days " what " proven designs" perhaps you mean IOR designs ( see fastnet ) or surely not Wetsnails or perhaps Chichesters boat , ( which he called a complete dog. Maybe we should all have pilot cutters. Funny jimmy Cornell is in a modern design , so it Beth and evens and of course there is dashew

Old designs are good of that means you get them cheap other then that they have few redeeming features.if buying a good second hand gets you sailing great.

As to low end production boats. ( a) I don't know who you means (b) what abandonments or ( c) oil canning, what is a fact , crews have always abandoned boats that were survivable. That hasn't changed . Today's many more 1000s are boating then 30 -40 years ago.

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A good list of these older proven world cruisers can be had by reading the threads, “Blue Water Cruising Capability” and “Westsail and Sister Boats. Before you put down a deposit on ANY production boat I would read the manufacturers forum discussions for that model. Then you will know what I am talking about.
The last thing you should do is listen to any "blue water" nonsense or co called boat lists. I would ( a) sail anything the French sail across oceans ( b) talk to delivery skippers. But more importantly build knowledge and sail and decide yourself. There is no perfect boat only one that is perfect for you.

Beneteau ,Catalinas, Hanse etc as well as HRs etc will all do the job. Buy what you like and can aford.

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The best advice I could give you is bigger IS better . Tankage and storage if you plan on long voyages is a major consideration. A three to five foot increase in length will make a world of difference. If you search you will find one in your price range. It IS a buyers market.

Whatever boat you choose make sure it is surveyed from keel up to the top of the mast, sea trial her and put her through the paces before purchase. Remember, you will always get more for your money in a well found older boat.

RT
Firstly you do not get more for your money on an old boat , you " may" get more but old system fail any one with an old boat will tell you they replace a lot. The pick axe may last 100 years bit it just had 10 handles and 8 new heads sort of thing. Old masts are not better then new ones, equally old rigging , old sails, old engines etc eyc etc.

Tankage and storage need to be appropriate to the journeys considered that's all watermakers change things as do the preponderance of things called " supermarkets" the world is a more homogenous place unfortunately.

My advice always buy bigger IF you can aford it. A 45 foot new or nearly new production cruiser is always better then an old boat 10 feet shorter.

Dave
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Old 09-12-2012, 09:43   #37
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If someone told me I had to be in a car accident, I'd take a 52 Buick (with seat belts as an upgrade) over a '12 Honda.
Of course this is where facts and accident testing go out the window and voodoo comes in agh yes boat selection as a religion. Never mind the facts or look for real answers , just Beleive.

Correct answer , you die in the Buick you might live in the 12 Honda ( and so might the people you hit )
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Old 09-12-2012, 09:49   #38
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Re: It seems the more we look and read, the more confused we get about the boat to bu

Dave I do agree that new Audi's are the cat ass, I drive audi's and have been primarly a german car tech for almost 20 years. I will never be able to out type you, your the king of the long, I know better post. Good luck with that. So how 'bout, Some old stuff is better than some new stuff & some new stuff is better than old stuff. Let's pointlessly argue about that.
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Old 09-12-2012, 09:53   #39
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Re: It seems the more we look and read, the more confused we get about the boat to bu

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We dont want to be buying and selling ideally, we'd prefer to make the right decision first and spend a few years getting to know and outfit the boat. We know every boat is a compromise.
Broken record checking in here--the above is incorrect in most cases. You simply can't make the right decision for yourselves without more experience. I have seen way too many people go out, spend a lot on the boat they think is ideal for them, and then discover they made a big mistake. I say buy something that isn't maybe perfect, but is adequate, local, reasonable in price, mostly ready to go, and begin trying it out. You will learn so much in two years that by then you might be ready to switch and make a much better decision on the boat to take you south and further afield. If you buy older, in decent shape, keep it up and maybe spruce up the appearance, you almost can't lose. Boats don't depreciate forever, like most cars. They reach a floor, and they start to climb in value. So, it really isn't much of a financial risk to try out something for a few years until you learn more about what you want and what will work best for you, whether it is new, old, or even custom or semi-custom.
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Old 09-12-2012, 09:55   #40
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Simply because you could take a #8 ring spanner to your 30 year car is not a definition of better.
Yes it is, in my mind. If something fails on my boat out of sight of land on a rough day, I want a shot at fixing it myself. When I'm rolling with an engine that won't start with that unsettling silence, I don't have the option of pulling into the nearest computer diagnostic station.

Certainly they made junk years ago too (remember "Le car"?) and we can fling lots of examples at each other, but I think most would agree that in general, build quality overall has deteriorated badly as time goes on. There's a reason I break Stanley tools all the time now, but I still have and use my great grandfather's hand plane - and no, I don't want to buy three of them.

And no, I don't want my bow or aft deck to flex like a trampoline for the sake of one more nautical mile out of a tank of fuel.
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Old 09-12-2012, 10:06   #41
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Re: It seems the more we look and read, the more confused we get about the boat to bu

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Now if you were buying a car would you buy one designed 30 years ago?
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Old 09-12-2012, 10:23   #42
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Re: It seems the more we look and read, the more confused we get about the boat to bu

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Yes it is, in my mind. If something fails on my boat out of sight of land on a rough day, I want a shot at fixing it myself. When I'm rolling with an engine that won't start with that unsettling silence, I don't have the option of pulling into the nearest computer diagnostic station.
Certainly they made junk years ago too (remember "le car"?) and we can fling lots of examples at each other, but I think most would agree that in general, build quality overall has deteriorated badly as time goes on. There's a reason I break Stanley tools all the time now, but I still have and use my great grandfather's hand plane - and no, I don't want to buy three of them.

And no, I don't want my bow or aft deck to flex like a trampoline for the sake of one more nautical mile out of a tank of fuel.


As a pro boat builder, I definitely agree. Modern materials and methods have definitely improved dramatically. The problem is that most of the benefit of these materials and methods is seen by the manufacterer, not the end user. It's great if you put some Kevlar in the lam to make it more abrasion resistant, but if the builder just reduces the scantlings as a cost saving measure every time they find a way to make a boat stronger, then the end result is not a stronger boat. It's a cheaper to build boat, with more profit margin for the builder. Many modern "innovations" have cost saving measures at their root, and some are terrible for the end user, like bonded in hull liners. The poster who said technology can be used for good or evil nailed it. Unfortunately many builders are very good at using it for evil while loudly declaring they are using it for good. And they often fool those who don't know better. As someone who fixes severely broken boats, I can tell you many modern boats don't do anywhere near as well in a serious collision as some older boats do. Obviously there exceptions to the rule on both sides. As an example, the insured replacement value of my boat is 1.6 million dollars. adjusting for inflation, it didn't cost that much to build. That's because materials like fiberglass, resin, and especially hardwoods like teak, we're much cheaper when my boat was built than they are now, relatively speaking. Careful and informed shopping for older boats can definitely get you a much better product for less money. Don't buy into the hype, often that's just what it is. And frankly most production builders are using exactly the same mate rials and methods as boats from this era, ie poly resin, balsa core, and a chopper gun. But they go to great lengths to make it sound like that's not the case.
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Old 09-12-2012, 10:29   #43
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Re: It seems the more we look and read, the more confused we get about the boat to bu

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Now if you were buying a car would you buy one designed 30 years ago?

I wish I could, I wish I could, I wish I could afford.

How many people with modern boats do you hear complain?
Just wait until they're 30 YO, if they make it that far.
I might add that a lot of 30 YO boats have been upgraded. It's the hulls that are still going strong! With new electronics, motors, advanced rigging and sails. And you will not find any chopped glass on mine.
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Old 09-12-2012, 10:37   #44
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Re: It seems the more we look and read, the more confused we get about the boat to bu

You may want to look to the experience of others There was a recent survey on this site that found A 40' Boat was the most popular. If you only want to do this once think about why
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Old 09-12-2012, 10:58   #45
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Re: It seems the more we look and read, the more confused we get about the boat to bu

Kettlewell is right.

A friend sailed his Catalina 34 from Vancouver to Mexico a few years ago, and he wrote this:

5000 Miles of Broken Bits

If you are going further than Mexico, his advice is very well taken.

I agree, you need to start with something and learn what works or doesn't for YOU.

IMHO, the Catalina 28 has been the wrong boat for many reasons: tried to cram too much big boat stuff into a smaller boat, I know lots of folks who sold theirs after two years or less and moved up, horribly over priced. It's a nice boat, but...

A Catalina 34 has a different layout than an Islander 34 - compare yourself. 34 foot boats can be different, way different, like night & day.

And sometimes bigger can be less expensive - compare a used C34 to a used C28 and you'll find, on a dollar per foot basis, a BIG difference.

Happy hunting and good luck.
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