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Old 28-03-2012, 17:03   #31
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Re: Is The Coast Or The Ocean More Dangerous ?

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Good to hear that this has worked for you; just shows that things are different in different parts of the world.

Concern for security (or implied security) of oil and gas installations is clearly different in some waters.

Sorry to hear they are not as tolerant over there. Maybe after the current crop of trouble settles out.

Here in the US it may be that from early on oil drillers courted sportsmen by touting artificial structure, (habitat), to improve fishing. That gave them the political leverage to open up the Gulf for drilling. It would be a little mean of them to kick us to the curb after using us to get their way.
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Old 28-03-2012, 17:08   #32
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Re: Is The Coast Or The Ocean More Dangerous ?

Kinda like a car in the middle of the Atacama Desert vs one in the middle of LA traffic....must safer in the desert with no traffic---until something breaks.

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Old 28-03-2012, 17:30   #33
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Re: Is The Coast Or The Ocean More Dangerous ?

Some vessels abandoned at sea - eventually turn up - (or sometimes down if catamarans).

Coastal sailing is far more dangerous (IMO), and requires far more vigilance. weather, lack of sea room - lack of navigable entrances at night/severe weather, more traffic etc..

However, if short hops are possible between safe anchorages with accurate forecasting - takes one dangerous element out.
Longer passages - such as anything in/out of NZ breach the forecasting horizon - caveat nauta

edit: check this out:
http://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=T4FIS1FnOQg
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Old 28-03-2012, 17:42   #34
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Depends on the danger. And I suppose the consequence.

- In-shore - higher probability of collision (with ships and shore) - easier to duck out of weather. Easier to be rescued.

- Off-shore - Low probability of collision. Harder to avoid weather. Can be very difficult to be rescued.

- consequences

- in-shore - loss of boat, severe damage to boat
- off-shore - lower probability of a boat loss but consequences are usually loss of boat and could be death of crew

I dont have any stats but its like, most car accidents occur within 5 miles of home. Wtf? Most driving is also within 5 miles of home.

There a fewer yachts at sea than in- shore by a big margin. The frequency of abandonments seems high to me. It seems we hear about 1 or 2 per month. I think people are less respectful of the sea these days and think electronic gizmos can overcome mother nature. I think there are some that underestimate the capability of the boat and overestimate the capability of the crew. Hence abandoned boats floating up to shore intact.

So at sea when it goes bad it is very dangerous but the frequency is less. In-shore is a higher freqency of accidents but lesser consequence.

I just watched Deep Water on Netflix. It is a documentary about the Crowhurst scam. There are some incredible big water shots as Motessier passed new zealand. It is these big open (and southern) waters that convince me I dont want to be a circumnavigator. I am a tropics cruiser for sure. 5 day passage max please...

Before you take your 70 y/o wife into the southern ocean or around any capes or horns, watch this show...
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Old 28-03-2012, 17:44   #35
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Re: Is The Coast Or The Ocean More Dangerous ?

I believe, all things considered, that being in deep water well away from land is a little less fatiguing--the wave patterns in deep water are a bit gentler than in shallower waters closer in, and the wind is a little more predictable without the sudden shifts caused by proximity to the coast.
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Old 28-03-2012, 17:48   #36
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Re: Is The Coast Or The Ocean More Dangerous ?

I travel up and down the east coast of Oz. I will not cross a bar in bad weather, from Sydney north there are a number of easy places to get into if the weather blows up unexpectedly being Pit water, Port Stevens, and Coffs Harbour. Every trip requires a plan of action should the weather turn. With todays weather forcasts they seem to get it fight for 2-3 days and thats a big window for coastal sailing. at sea it is different but with sea room and a couple of days notice it is possible to lesson the danger.
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Old 28-03-2012, 17:51   #37
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I travel up and down the east coast of Oz. I will not cross a bar in bad weather, from Sydney north there are a number of easy places to get into if the weather blows up unexpectedly being Pit water, Port Stevens, and Coffs Harbour. Every trip requires a plan of action should the weather turn. With todays weather forcasts they seem to get it fight for 2-3 days and thats a big window for coastal sailing. at sea it is different but with sea room and a couple of days notice it is possible to lesson the danger.
I remember one trip as a kid. We went up the Hawkesbury from Chuch point. Beautiful day going out. Coming back the seas were up huge between the heads. The only time I was scared on a boat. I was like 10 at the time...
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Old 28-03-2012, 18:01   #38
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Re: Is The Coast Or The Ocean More Dangerous ?

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Depends on the danger. And I suppose the consequence.

- In-shore - higher probability of collision (with ships and shore) - easier to duck out of weather. Easier to be rescued.

- Off-shore - Low probability of collision. Harder to avoid weather. Can be very difficult to be rescued.

- consequences

- in-shore - loss of boat, severe damage to boat
- off-shore - lower probability of a boat loss but consequences are usually loss of boat and could be death of crew

I dont have any stats but its like, most car accidents occur within 5 miles of home. Wtf? Most driving is also within 5 miles of home.

There a fewer yachts at sea than in- shore by a big margin. The frequency of abandonments seems high to me. It seems we hear about 1 or 2 per month. I think people are less respectful of the sea these days and think electronic gizmos can overcome mother nature. I think there are some that underestimate the capability of the boat and overestimate the capability of the crew. Hence abandoned boats floating up to shore intact.

So at sea when it goes bad it is very dangerous but the frequency is less. In-shore is a higher freqency of accidents but lesser consequence.

I just watched Deep Water on Netflix. It is a documentary about the Crowhurst scam. There are some incredible big water shots as Motessier passed new zealand. It is these big open (and southern) waters that convince me I dont want to be a circumnavigator. I am a tropics cruiser for sure. 5 day passage max please...

Before you take your 70 y/o wife into the southern ocean or around any capes or horns, watch this show...
All reasonable.
but lets just say the danger is sinking and death. If its cold - close to coast or not you are dying real quick (I think you have been enjoying the good life in Asia too long)...
So, ignoring the rescue argument - in shore seems more dangerous - also ducking in can sometimes be the most dangerous as inlets become suicidal...
cheers
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Old 28-03-2012, 22:26   #39
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All reasonable.
but lets just say the danger is sinking and death. If its cold - close to coast or not you are dying real quick (I think you have been enjoying the good life in Asia too long)...
So, ignoring the rescue argument - in shore seems more dangerous - also ducking in can sometimes be the most dangerous as inlets become suicidal...
cheers
No argument here. I had a problem digesting the question anyway. What is danger? Breaking a fingernail? Breaking your boat? Dying?

No doubt in my mind there is a better chance of an "incident" close to shore. Its the consequence part that is different in my mind. Hypothermia? What's that - LOL...

And of course when you sail away from shore the biggest factor becomes weather. I do think there are a lot more people that think they can jump aboard and sail away. It seems that the scary thing in the past was navigation. So with gps everyone says, "no probleemo. Can't get lost.". You can still get smacked by a storm.

And without significant experience bouncing around in boats, it seems some are too willing to bail out on the boat. Just my dumb opinion...
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Old 29-03-2012, 01:26   #40
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Re: Is The Coast Or The Ocean More Dangerous ?

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Hmm.... not sure if I would second the advice regarding rigs. Typically this do not provide much shelter and most (all?) have exclusion zones around them. Unmanned rigs are (have?) installing security cameras and alarms etc.
I am kinda with you on this one Wotname....
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Old 29-03-2012, 02:21   #41
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Re: Is The Coast Or The Ocean More Dangerous ?

The Rigs out on the Ocean are designed to allow the waves to flow straight through them,

What goes through, Comes out the other side just as big as it was, before it went under,

I would stay away from rigs, Your better off just running before The storm, Unless your headed for shore,
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Old 29-03-2012, 05:19   #42
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Re: Is The Coast Or The Ocean More Dangerous ?

Using rigs as shelter breaks in the North Sea? Not a chance. Something a lot more solid like a harbour wall is what you want.

As to dangers inshore vs offshore you can drown as easily in a couple of feet as a couple of thousand feet. The amount of hazards inshore are a lot more than offshore - all the land for a start plus shallow bits and some of those can be worse than just a case of touching bottom with a sea running over them. Inshore you get a lot more other traffic from fishing boats to supertankers; none of which are always going to be as agile as they might be keeping out of your way. Add in overfalls and tide rips as well as getting caught on a lee shore and there are lots of potential hazards.

Offshore there is always the chance of a meeting with another vessel including large ships. Remember if it takes you by surprise it will also take the ship by surprise too; we don't expect to see small boats in mid-ocean and how good is your radar return? As to visual lookout I can personally attest to the fact that trying to see a small boat with white sails in rough weather is damned difficult unless you are almost on top of it - even with a radar return. (That is why my heavy weather sails are a rather revolting orange colour). The biggest risk offshore is always going to be bad weather but real storm conditions are relatively rare - fortunately - in most well travelled areas. Modern weather forecasting equipment can give you some warning but depending on the boat if you do get caught out the option of avoiding it is not always viable. Then all you can do is prepare for the worst and hope for the best.
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