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Old 18-06-2015, 05:26   #46
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Re: Is the Caribbean considered "Blue Water"

to me when a boat is described as blue water capable it equates to ocean passage maker
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Old 18-06-2015, 05:29   #47
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Re: Is the Caribbean considered "Blue Water"

So, an 18 ft. rowboat would definitely qualify. Since several of them have crossed oceans.
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Old 18-06-2015, 06:11   #48
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Re: Is the Caribbean considered "Blue Water"

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Originally Posted by Canibul View Post
So, an 18 ft. rowboat would definitely qualify. Since several of them have crossed oceans.
Like with most equipment, operator skill and experience often seems to be the definitive factor. In every aspect of life, you see people trying to make up for lack of skill and experience with better equipment. You also see people with skill and experience overcoming substandard equipment. Look at sports where people constantly buy different sports equipment, looking to improve their performance. Sometimes it works, and sometimes, despite their $500 tennis racket, they still get beat by someone with a Wilson T2000. (Think how many people have cracked expensive yachts with motors up, on the same reefs that the Pardey's managed to somehow sail through with no engine).

I remember reading about Chuck Yeager flying the first captured MIG against U.S. fighters in test flights and beating them all and scaring the bejesus out of the Air Force generals. Until they switched the pilots and put Yeager back in a US fighter, where he beat all of the other test pilots who were flying the MIG.

You see people abandoning "blue water" yachts in storms all of the time (with said yachts often found floating months later) while lots of people successfully make passages in "coastal cruisers" with no problems.

I still think, like in most endeavors, experience and skill, are the over riding determiners, of who is going to get a boat through blue water successfully.
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Old 18-06-2015, 06:25   #49
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It was a dark and stormy night and the Captain of the ship said..
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And the yarn began like this..
'T'was a dark and stormy night.. and the Captain of the ship said...'
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Old 18-06-2015, 06:47   #50
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Re: Is the Caribbean considered "Blue Water"

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Originally Posted by adlib2 View Post
Disagree entirely: You can be across in one day in day light and if need be select your weather window.
You will never encounter conditions found mid ocean.
I did Key West, Florida to St Martin non stop a few years ago. It was 1,400nms and took 13 days and the wind was on the nose the whole time.

It was a blue water passage. Make no doubt about that!!!


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Old 18-06-2015, 07:00   #51
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Re: Is the Caribbean considered "Blue Water"

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Originally Posted by Canibul View Post
So, an 18 ft. rowboat would definitely qualify. Since several of them have crossed oceans.
That is an interesting (and good) point.

What follows is posted in a good humor, with good will, and not meant to dispute that small boats or even rowboats can cross an ocean.
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I have always found it interesting to see how sailors or adventurers pick different craft or design or modify existing ones, to make challenging voyages.

I think it would be better to say that if given a choice (resources or $$$) most today would choose a "Blue Water" designed or equipped or modified rowboat to cross an ocean.

Not all rowboats are designed (or modified and equipped) for rowing across an ocean. Some are, not all are.

_________________________________

Ocean rowing is an interesting sport, challenge, and for some an achievement.

Here is a clip that puts it into perspective.
"A Feat often refered to the Everest of the Sea. Although not many people have succeeded in rowing across an ocean, particularly by themselves, many have tried.

According to history the first people to row across the Atlantic were Frank Samuelson and George Harbo, in 1896. After leaving Manhattan, New York, they arrived in Le Havre, France, via the Scilly Isles, 55 days later. Their navigation was via sextant using the stars (not by GPS like us modern day rowers) and had no waterproof shelter. These were the days when men were men.

The first solo crossing was completed by John Fairfax in 1969, taking 180 days. The second crossing was completed only 8 days later by Tom McClean, despite having left nearly four months later than Fairfax.

MODERN DAY ROWS (SNIP)
Recently the move was made to differentiate Historic Rows vs Modern Day Rows. The main difference being that those regarded as historic rows carried their own water and Modern Day rowers typically use Solar Energy to charge batteries which in turn run Water Desalinators - which turn Salt water into fresh water. What difference does that make you might ask? Well we all know that water is heavy and the more you cary the heavier the both and therefore the harder it is to row!

According to Wikipedia By the end of the 2008 climbing season, there had been 4,102 ascents to the summit of Mount Everest by about 2,700 individuals. This compares to the current Ocean Rowing stats from the Ocean Rowing Society that only approx 300 successful crossings of any Ocean this is solo or team - less than 100 of these have been by Solo rowers. Nearly 50% of all solo-ocean rows have not been completed. Although in most of these the rowers were rescued, it must not be forgotten that the cost of an unsuccessful row may sometimes be the rower's life. There have been seven recorded deaths of rowers at sea, and a monument in their memory can now be found at Kilkee in Ireland. "
SOURCE: Danny Sunkel - Ocean Rower - History
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Old 18-06-2015, 07:15   #52
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Re: Is the Caribbean considered "Blue Water"

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Originally Posted by Canibul View Post
So, an 18 ft. rowboat would definitely qualify. Since several of them have crossed oceans.
An ocean rowboat? Kinda by definition.
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Old 18-06-2015, 07:16   #53
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Re: Is the Caribbean considered "Blue Water"

A number of good points have been brought up in this thread. To add my 2c,

* Although the water in the Caribbean can be quite blue, sailing in the Caribbean is generally not "blue water" sailing. By "blue water" most are referring not to the color of the water (just as black-water isn't really black), but to offshore sailing. BTW, I find the color of the Carribbean water infinitely more inviting than that of the water in New England.

* by blue-water, most people mean offshore - to which I would add a few qualifiers

- there's offshore where you're simply beyond VHF range may have an overnight -- you may have this in some places in the Caribbean

- there's offshore where you're a few days out, but within reasonable weather forecasting -- you may have this getting to the Caribbean, and potentially on a few passages within the Caribbean. Forecasts aren't perfect, but a 3 day passage is fundamentally different from a 3 week passage.

- there's offshore where you cannot expect a decent forecast to last as long as your passage. you ought to have ability to receive weather-fax and/or gribs in order to plan and adjust course en route -- you may have this getting to the Caribbean, but not within the Caribbean (unless you're challenged as a navigator).

* I find that offshore sailing is easier and more relaxing than coastal sailing because there are fewer other boats to dodge and generally one doesn't have to worry as much about running aground.

* The conditions experienced offshore may be significantly worse (wind strength, wave height) than those experienced when coastal, primarily because one wouldn't go out in those conditions if one were coastal, but when one is far offshore, the only choice is routing to aim for better conditions.

* Much of it comes down to mindset. Just as some people feel more safe in cities where there are others around, others feel more comfortable in unpopulated areas. If you're the kind to radio for help when your engine won't start, you probably feel better staying coastal; if you consider yourself self-sufficient, there may be fewer troubles to get into at sea (e.g. I've only fouled on a lobster buoy when near the coast).

Some people say they wouldn't cruise the Caribbean in any boat less than X. I can promise you that no matter where you set X, others have had a great time cruising on less than X.
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Old 18-06-2015, 07:26   #54
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Re: Is the Caribbean considered "Blue Water"

There's a guy that sails in and out of Mayreau the locals call 'one man' because he's always alone. Makes sense he sails between the islands on his engineless twentyish ft sailboat, fishing and selling the fish to pay his way. It's pretty rare and wind or sea conditions stop him heading out, usually for the whole day or longer. He probably drops the hook on other islands on his jaunts as well. I don't think there's a need to debate what is or isn't capable of sailing around the Caribbean. If one man can do it so can you

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Old 18-06-2015, 07:41   #55
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Re: Is the Caribbean considered "Blue Water"

Quote:
Originally Posted by accomplice View Post
A number of good points have been brought up in this thread. To add my 2c,

* Although the water in the Caribbean can be quite blue, sailing in the Caribbean is generally not "blue water" sailing. By "blue water" most are referring not to the color of the water (just as black-water isn't really black), but to offshore sailing. BTW, I find the color of the Carribbean water infinitely more inviting than that of the water in New England.

* by blue-water, most people mean offshore - to which I would add a few qualifiers

- there's offshore where you're simply beyond VHF range may have an overnight -- you may have this in some places in the Caribbean

- there's offshore where you're a few days out, but within reasonable weather forecasting -- you may have this getting to the Caribbean, and potentially on a few passages within the Caribbean. Forecasts aren't perfect, but a 3 day passage is fundamentally different from a 3 week passage.

- there's offshore where you cannot expect a decent forecast to last as long as your passage. you ought to have ability to receive weather-fax and/or gribs in order to plan and adjust course en route -- you may have this getting to the Caribbean, but not within the Caribbean (unless you're challenged as a navigator).

* I find that offshore sailing is easier and more relaxing than coastal sailing because there are fewer other boats to dodge and generally one doesn't have to worry as much about running aground.

* The conditions experienced offshore may be significantly worse (wind strength, wave height) than those experienced when coastal, primarily because one wouldn't go out in those conditions if one were coastal, but when one is far offshore, the only choice is routing to aim for better conditions.

* Much of it comes down to mindset. Just as some people feel more safe in cities where there are others around, others feel more comfortable in unpopulated areas. If you're the kind to radio for help when your engine won't start, you probably feel better staying coastal; if you consider yourself self-sufficient, there may be fewer troubles to get into at sea (e.g. I've only fouled on a lobster buoy when near the coast).

Some people say they wouldn't cruise the Caribbean in any boat less than X. I can promise you that no matter where you set X, others have had a great time cruising on less than X.
The above statement about coastal sailing assumes one has a choice. We often do not, unless you are just a weekend warrior. Don't forget that coasting can also be a component of long ranging, and often is, particularly at landfall. Coasting limits avoidance options by definition, so is by definition more dangerous than oceanic in adverse conditions. The entrances of high latitude havens are littered with the wrecks of those who thought that "any port in a storm" was more than a lubber's line. Further, coastal conditions are generally far less precisely predictable than offshore, and coastal presents many other hazards such as shallow water steepening long period oceanic swell, rocks, strong tidal currents, refracted and reflected waves, katabatic and other land effect winds, and far more stochastic and unpredictable weather in the lee.

It is just simply false to state that "deep ocean" weather or conditions are "worse" than coastal conditions.
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Old 18-06-2015, 08:01   #56
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Re: Is the Caribbean considered "Blue Water"

Quote:
Originally Posted by accomplice View Post
A number of good points have been brought up in this thread. To add my 2c,

* Although the water in the Caribbean can be quite blue, sailing in the Caribbean is generally not "blue water" sailing. By "blue water" most are referring not to the color of the water (just as black-water isn't really black), but to offshore sailing. BTW, I find the color of the Carribbean water infinitely more inviting than that of the water in New England.

* by blue-water, most people mean offshore - to which I would add a few qualifiers

- there's offshore where you're simply beyond VHF range may have an overnight -- you may have this in some places in the Caribbean

- there's offshore where you're a few days out, but within reasonable weather forecasting -- you may have this getting to the Caribbean, and potentially on a few passages within the Caribbean. Forecasts aren't perfect, but a 3 day passage is fundamentally different from a 3 week passage.

- there's offshore where you cannot expect a decent forecast to last as long as your passage. you ought to have ability to receive weather-fax and/or gribs in order to plan and adjust course en route -- you may have this getting to the Caribbean, but not within the Caribbean (unless you're challenged as a navigator).

* I find that offshore sailing is easier and more relaxing than coastal sailing because there are fewer other boats to dodge and generally one doesn't have to worry as much about running aground.

* The conditions experienced offshore may be significantly worse (wind strength, wave height) than those experienced when coastal, primarily because one wouldn't go out in those conditions if one were coastal, but when one is far offshore, the only choice is routing to aim for better conditions.

* Much of it comes down to mindset. Just as some people feel more safe in cities where there are others around, others feel more comfortable in unpopulated areas. If you're the kind to radio for help when your engine won't start, you probably feel better staying coastal; if you consider yourself self-sufficient, there may be fewer troubles to get into at sea (e.g. I've only fouled on a lobster buoy when near the coast).

Some people say they wouldn't cruise the Caribbean in any boat less than X. I can promise you that no matter where you set X, others have had a great time cruising on less than X.
I assume you are limiting your view of the "Caribbean" to the Eastern Antilles? It is easy and normal to have a 1200 nm passage from there across the centre of the Caribbean Sea to Central America…
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Old 18-06-2015, 08:23   #57
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Re: Is the Caribbean considered "Blue Water"

Quote:
Originally Posted by accomplice View Post
A number of good points have been brought up in this thread. To add my 2c,

* Although the water in the Caribbean can be quite blue, sailing in the Caribbean is generally not "blue water" sailing. By "blue water" most are referring not to the color of the water (just as black-water isn't really black), but to offshore sailing. BTW, I find the color of the Carribbean water infinitely more inviting than that of the water in New England.

* by blue-water, most people mean offshore - to which I would add a few qualifiers

- there's offshore where you're simply beyond VHF range may have an overnight -- you may have this in some places in the Caribbean

- there's offshore where you're a few days out, but within reasonable weather forecasting -- you may have this getting to the Caribbean, and potentially on a few passages within the Caribbean. Forecasts aren't perfect, but a 3 day passage is fundamentally different from a 3 week passage.

- there's offshore where you cannot expect a decent forecast to last as long as your passage. you ought to have ability to receive weather-fax and/or gribs in order to plan and adjust course en route -- you may have this getting to the Caribbean, but not within the Caribbean (unless you're challenged as a navigator).

* I find that offshore sailing is easier and more relaxing than coastal sailing because there are fewer other boats to dodge and generally one doesn't have to worry as much about running aground.

* The conditions experienced offshore may be significantly worse (wind strength, wave height) than those experienced when coastal, primarily because one wouldn't go out in those conditions if one were coastal, but when one is far offshore, the only choice is routing to aim for better conditions.

* Much of it comes down to mindset. Just as some people feel more safe in cities where there are others around, others feel more comfortable in unpopulated areas. If you're the kind to radio for help when your engine won't start, you probably feel better staying coastal; if you consider yourself self-sufficient, there may be fewer troubles to get into at sea (e.g. I've only fouled on a lobster buoy when near the coast).

Some people say they wouldn't cruise the Caribbean in any boat less than X. I can promise you that no matter where you set X, others have had a great time cruising on less than X.
Of course most people do so refer. But the origin of the reference is definitely to do with the colour of the water, which denotes offshore sailing. Continental waters are rarely that colour. In any case I am happy to accept/concede the colloquial definition, so long as its original meaning is understood.

The Eastern Caribbean islands are an archipelago far from continental waters or continental services. They are pinpricks up through the deep ocean, which otherwise sweeps uninterrupted from West Africa to Central America. I suppose this is a problem like the paradox of the heap and there is no real point in belabouring it too much, but I would be interested in your opinion as to whether sailing among the Marquesas or the Cook Island groups or between the groups of French Polynesia (generally only overnight or so between the major groups) constitutes "coastal" sailing by this (to me somewhat odd and inappropriate) definition?
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Old 18-06-2015, 09:40   #58
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Re: Is the Caribbean considered "Blue Water"

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I did Key West, Florida to St Martin non stop a few years ago. It was 1,400nms and took 13 days and the wind was on the nose the whole time.

It was a blue water passage. Make no doubt about that!!!


And, a lot of it came over the deck I bet!

I made one of those from Ft. Lauderdale to Bimini one night. It may not have qualified as "blue water" but it sure sucked!
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Old 18-06-2015, 09:56   #59
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Re: Is the Caribbean considered "Blue Water"

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There's a guy that sails in and out of Mayreau the locals call 'one man' because he's always alone. Makes sense he sails between the islands on his engineless twentyish ft sailboat, fishing and selling the fish to pay his way. It's pretty rare and wind or sea conditions stop him heading out, usually for the whole day or longer. He probably drops the hook on other islands on his jaunts as well. I don't think there's a need to debate what is or isn't capable of sailing around the Caribbean. If one man can do it so can you

Attachment 103913
For the record, and just so there isn't doubt, my defense of the idea that the EC can be considered 'blue water' sailing in no way suggests the OP should not attempt it. Quite the opposite actually, and indeed my wider point is that "blue water" sailing tends on average to be easier and safer than coastal or green/brown/black water!
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Old 18-06-2015, 16:30   #60
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Re: Is the Caribbean considered "Blue Water"

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I would consider crossing the Gulf Stream to get to the Carribean "Blue Water". Anyone disagree?
Cousin and his buddies crossed from Miami in a northerly on jetskis, not fun for them at the time but a funny story after the fact. Puking, sunburn,fuel shortage etc.

So, no, not blue just rough..
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